3 ms·

that's what I meant by leaving, renouncing US citizenship.

catears 6y ago
If I understand you correctly, you mean that wealthy americans who have built their fortune and life in america will choose to not only leave but also revoke their citizenship and leave the US? All because they have to pay more money than before in taxes? Personally, I don't think all millionares and billionares are willing to leave their life and family behind because of a some dollars in federal tax...
- andrewtbham 6y ago
  Yes. Many US tech founders weren't born in America. So they would be going back to their families. And taking their immediate families with them. Eduard Saverin (facebook) did renounce his citizenship. There are many immigrant founders: Elon Musk (South Africa, Canada), Sergey Brin (Russia).
enraged_camel 6y ago
I think a more accurate way of phrasing your original statement is "if a wealth tax was implemented and I myself were wealthy to the point where it applied to me, I would renounce my citizenship". Because you don't speak for rich people, as there is no evidence that they would, in fact, leave America.
- andrewtbham 6y ago
  1) Renouncing US citizenship is a small but growing trend. https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/renouncing-us-citizenship-new-trend https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/renouncing-us-citize... 2) The fact that the US created an exit tax is proof that is a growing problem. The best case for this as a prediction can be made for this idea in the book "Sovereign Individual" Even if you don't renounce, many wealthy people have second citizenships. Jim Rogers is the first wealthy person I heard really talk about this.
  - learc83 6y ago
    The effective tax rate has been on a downward trend for the past 50 years, so if renouncing US citizenship is a growing trend, that doesn't make a good argument for a strong positive correlation between the two.
    - enraged_camel 6y ago
      Precisely. People don't realize how high taxes were back in the 50s, all the way through the 70s. https://bradfordtaxinstitute.com/Free_Resources/Federal-Income-Tax-Rates.aspx https://bradfordtaxinstitute.com/Free_Resources/Federal-Inco...
      - andrewtbham 6y ago
        People don't realize there was no income tax till 1913, only tariffs. Income taxes are historically raised to pay for war... The US has been on war time taxes ever since WWII. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_taxation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_taxation_in_the_Uni...
    - andrewtbham 6y ago
      The overarching trend/correlation is.... All governments are increasingly competing with other jurisdictions on lower taxes and better services. The reason is people have increasing options because of better communication (internet), transportation (especially shipping), job mobility, etc. Covid has accelerated this trend with wfh.
      - learc83 6y ago
        Well the only trend that we can look at quantitatively, tax rate vs US citizenship renunciations shows the exact opposite correlation to what you've been arguing.

If I understand you correctly, you mean that wealthy americans who have built their fortune and life in america will choose to not only leave but also revoke their citizenship and leave the US? All because they have to pay more money than before in taxes? Personally, I don't think all millionares and billionares are willing to leave their life and family behind because of a some dollars in federal tax...

andrewtbham 6y ago
Yes. Many US tech founders weren't born in America. So they would be going back to their families. And taking their immediate families with them. Eduard Saverin (facebook) did renounce his citizenship. There are many immigrant founders: Elon Musk (South Africa, Canada), Sergey Brin (Russia).

enraged_camel 6y ago

I think a more accurate way of phrasing your original statement is "if a wealth tax was implemented and I myself were wealthy to the point where it applied to me, I would renounce my citizenship". Because you don't speak for rich people, as there is no evidence that they would, in fact, leave America.

andrewtbham 6y ago
1) Renouncing US citizenship is a small but growing trend. https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/renouncing-us-citizenship-new-trend https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/renouncing-us-citize... 2) The fact that the US created an exit tax is proof that is a growing problem. The best case for this as a prediction can be made for this idea in the book "Sovereign Individual" Even if you don't renounce, many wealthy people have second citizenships. Jim Rogers is the first wealthy person I heard really talk about this.
- learc83 6y ago
  The effective tax rate has been on a downward trend for the past 50 years, so if renouncing US citizenship is a growing trend, that doesn't make a good argument for a strong positive correlation between the two.
  - enraged_camel 6y ago
    Precisely. People don't realize how high taxes were back in the 50s, all the way through the 70s. https://bradfordtaxinstitute.com/Free_Resources/Federal-Income-Tax-Rates.aspx https://bradfordtaxinstitute.com/Free_Resources/Federal-Inco...
    - andrewtbham 6y ago
      People don't realize there was no income tax till 1913, only tariffs. Income taxes are historically raised to pay for war... The US has been on war time taxes ever since WWII. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_taxation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_taxation_in_the_Uni...
  - andrewtbham 6y ago
    The overarching trend/correlation is.... All governments are increasingly competing with other jurisdictions on lower taxes and better services. The reason is people have increasing options because of better communication (internet), transportation (especially shipping), job mobility, etc. Covid has accelerated this trend with wfh.
    - learc83 6y ago
      Well the only trend that we can look at quantitatively, tax rate vs US citizenship renunciations shows the exact opposite correlation to what you've been arguing.