4 ms·

> chooses to go with Python or Ruby simply due to inertia of the languages Not sure if that's inertia of the languages. My Python path started with a) having o

by praptak 16y ago

> chooses to go with Python or Ruby simply due to inertia of the languages Not sure if that's inertia of the languages. My Python path started with a) having only heard it's good for scripting/prototyping and b) the need for a quick way to test a SOAP interface. Nobody in the company used it at that time, so language inertia was heavily against Python. I had the first successful SOAP call within hours of downloading the implementation (yup, the is important). Googling for Lisp soap client gave some links for an implementation on commercial Lisp (deal breaker at this stage) and one whose quickstart docs start with at least three required dependencies "Make sure X works for you", "get package Y", and so on. My point is that "batteries included" really makes a difference.

gaius 16y ago
It's ironic when PG says Lisp is a "bottom up" language that it's so hard to get it into a company in a bottom-up way. Whereas Python always starts off being used by one person for their personal work, then as others see how productive they are/it is it snowballs from there.
- hvs 16y ago
  I agree with you, although I do a fair amount of personal scripting in lisp to make me more productive at work. But for things like that, I could just as easily use Python, and Python is more readily accepted by other developers at my company. It's no use pretending otherwise, "what's with all the parenthesis?" is still a major roadblock to acceptance.
  - ldh 16y ago
    It's no use pretending otherwise, "what's with all the parenthesis?" is still a major roadblock to acceptance. Sigh. One might imagine a similar objection such as "what's with all the significant whitespace", but apparently that shocks people less than a few parentheses. I wish more developers would see radically unfamiliar syntax as an opportunity to discover ideas they might be missing out on.
  - parfe 16y ago
    At my office, it has nothing to do with parenthesis and everything to do with the fact that a new person can be pointed to http://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.3/ http://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.3/ and told to get started. Done. They can learn it all on their own. In all these lamentations about LISP not being top-dog I never see anyone point to a tutorial to bootstrap a project for a beginner. The first google result for lisp web framework points to http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-weblocks/ http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-weblocks/ which points to a Trac site for documentation which points to http://weblocks.viridian-project.de/ http://weblocks.viridian-project.de/ and under documentation you can get a link to the early draft of the guide at http://viridian-project.de/~sky/user-guide.stx.html http://viridian-project.de/~sky/user-guide.stx.html And once you finally arrive at the destination, there isn't a complete set of documentation. The project actually looks pretty cool, but how could I rationalise trying to learn off a set of incomplete docs? Or recommending it in a professional environment? EDIT: And looking over the comments here, the only links offsite is someone complaining about pricing and someone else offering up some git projects where someone is currently translating a project into english. Pretty fucking pompous to say non-Lispers are scared of parens.
    - pavelludiq 16y ago
      Sure, common lisp is not the best language for "connect the dots" style web development, but people are using it to write webapps. If you don't know the language, and you're ignorant of the options and tools, you will not be spoon-fed. If you need a way to glue a bunch of ready made components without spending too much time learning your tools and environment, python|ruby IS the better choice. But of course web development might not be a sufficiently hard problem for CL to yield a significant benefit over python. Also, combining them is also an option, write your hard stuff in CL, let your less experienced programmers write the web interface in Django. Its a matter of what works for you, i guess.
      - parfe 16y ago
        Why am I not surprised your response is unhelpful yet pompous. It's what Lisp Does™

by praptak 16y ago

gaius 16y ago

It's ironic when PG says Lisp is a "bottom up" language that it's so hard to get it into a company in a bottom-up way. Whereas Python always starts off being used by one person for their personal work, then as others see how productive they are/it is it snowballs from there.

hvs 16y ago
I agree with you, although I do a fair amount of personal scripting in lisp to make me more productive at work. But for things like that, I could just as easily use Python, and Python is more readily accepted by other developers at my company. It's no use pretending otherwise, "what's with all the parenthesis?" is still a major roadblock to acceptance.
- ldh 16y ago
  It's no use pretending otherwise, "what's with all the parenthesis?" is still a major roadblock to acceptance. Sigh. One might imagine a similar objection such as "what's with all the significant whitespace", but apparently that shocks people less than a few parentheses. I wish more developers would see radically unfamiliar syntax as an opportunity to discover ideas they might be missing out on.
- parfe 16y ago
  At my office, it has nothing to do with parenthesis and everything to do with the fact that a new person can be pointed to http://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.3/ http://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.3/ and told to get started. Done. They can learn it all on their own. In all these lamentations about LISP not being top-dog I never see anyone point to a tutorial to bootstrap a project for a beginner. The first google result for lisp web framework points to http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-weblocks/ http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-weblocks/ which points to a Trac site for documentation which points to http://weblocks.viridian-project.de/ http://weblocks.viridian-project.de/ and under documentation you can get a link to the early draft of the guide at http://viridian-project.de/~sky/user-guide.stx.html http://viridian-project.de/~sky/user-guide.stx.html And once you finally arrive at the destination, there isn't a complete set of documentation. The project actually looks pretty cool, but how could I rationalise trying to learn off a set of incomplete docs? Or recommending it in a professional environment? EDIT: And looking over the comments here, the only links offsite is someone complaining about pricing and someone else offering up some git projects where someone is currently translating a project into english. Pretty fucking pompous to say non-Lispers are scared of parens.
  - pavelludiq 16y ago
    Sure, common lisp is not the best language for "connect the dots" style web development, but people are using it to write webapps. If you don't know the language, and you're ignorant of the options and tools, you will not be spoon-fed. If you need a way to glue a bunch of ready made components without spending too much time learning your tools and environment, python|ruby IS the better choice. But of course web development might not be a sufficiently hard problem for CL to yield a significant benefit over python. Also, combining them is also an option, write your hard stuff in CL, let your less experienced programmers write the web interface in Django. Its a matter of what works for you, i guess.
    - parfe 16y ago
      Why am I not surprised your response is unhelpful yet pompous. It's what Lisp Does™