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You're cherry picking. France imposed a wealth tax and they repealed it. "At least 10,000 wealthy people left the country to avoid paying the tax; most moved t

You're cherry picking. France imposed a wealth tax and they repealed it. "At least 10,000 wealthy people left the country to avoid paying the tax; most moved to neighboring Belgium" https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-11-14/france-s-wealth-tax-should-be-a-warning-for-warren-and-sanders https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-11-14/france...

troughway 6y ago
Not to derail the topic but “taxing the rich” was one of the bullet points that was supposed to answer where the money for a UBI system would come from. This is exactly how globalization will impact UBI as well, because at the end of the day the manufacturing firms, big corporations and everyone else who is vested in making money will uproot and go elsewhere, where they won’t be taxed so harshly. And just to add, that France even tried to pull that stunt without asking “what happens when they all leave?” is just silly negligence. Of course these people are not dependent on any particular country - they’ve diversified their assets long ago. Strikes me as incredibly narrow minded thinking at a country level. Unbelievable.
- eanzenberg 6y ago
  I believe UBI zealots moved passed trying to explain how to fund it and now don’t really care.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > Not to derail the topic but “taxing the rich” was one of the bullet points that was supposed to answer where the money for a UBI system would come from. Obviously this could as easily refer to any form of taxation that comes disproportionately from the rich. Which, because of what a UBI itself does to the effective rate curve, is actually pretty much all of them. You could use VAT and VAT+UBI is still a progressive tax system, because everyone at the lower income levels is still receiving disproportionately more than they're paying. It actually solves the biggest drawback of a flat tax and allows you to use one while still having the money come disproportionately from people making more of it. > This is exactly how globalization will impact UBI as well, because at the end of the day the manufacturing firms, big corporations and everyone else who is vested in making money will uproot and go elsewhere, where they won’t be taxed so harshly. If you're funding it with VAT or some other consumption tax then it isn't the companies manufacturing there who pay it, it's the ones who sell there. Which they can't avoid by moving their operations somewhere else, because the customers are where they are.
- rswail 6y ago
  Is anyone proposing a wealth tax on corporate entities? Not that I've seen. Firms/Corporations already engage in massive profit shifting to avoid taxation. That's without any corporate wealth taxes. So why do you think a wealth tax on an individual's wealth would cause corporations to "uproot and go elsewhere"?
  - SubuSS 6y ago
    Don't most of these individuals hold bulk of their wealth in corporations? They are probably not sleeping on a few billion dollars :) When they have to pay this tax, they will have to dilute the company which in turn affects their control and hold, possibly even the direction of the company over time. So yes - corporations will eventually feel the heat.
learc83 6y ago
1. The French income tax and wealth tax was extraordinary high. 2. France is part of the EU, there are dozens of countries that French millionaires can move to with almost zero friction. Moving to neighboring Belgium is like moving from New York to New Jersey.
- andrewtbham 6y ago
  Exactly, it is like moving from Los Angeles to Nashville, or from San Francisco to Austin. Which is what people are doing.
  - learc83 6y ago
    Sure and if you impose a tax a national level instead of a state (or EU member country) the diminishing returns for increased taxation occur at a higher rate because it's much harder to move to a new country than it is to move to a new state. Also housing prices probably have more to do with people leaving high priced cities than taxes do.
    - andrewtbham 6y ago
      If you impose a wealth tax at the national level, rich people will leave America (edit: renounce citizenship) and ambitious people will never come here to begin with. America will no longer be the land of opportunity. The US has already passed an exit tax to try to prevent the wealthy from renouncing their citizenship. At some point even an exit tax won't be enough. If you study the fall of the roman empire, you will find people abandon huge estates to just start over away from roman taxes. https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expatriation-tax https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expa...
      - take_a_breath 6y ago
        ==If you impose a wealth tax at the national level, rich people will leave America and ambitious people will never come here to begin with.== This is a pretty absolute claim to make without any sources or data to back it up.
martingoodson 6y ago
The rate of tax must have been very high if people chose to move to Belgium. Countries just need to find a level under the 'Belgium threshold'.
- pa7x1 6y ago
  Belgium has very high income tax but very low capital gains tax. For already rich people is pretty much a tax haven, for salaried workers is almost confiscatory.
- compscistd 6y ago
  Or as other commenters pointed out, get some EU intervention
thomasdullien 6y ago
s/cherry picking/showing an example with interesting properties that is different from France/g So this is actually where the discussion should go: What properties does the Swiss wealth tax have (particularly in the wider taxation system) that the French wealth tax did not have? What is needed for a wealth tax to have no negative effects? What about income and capital gains tax at the same time? Etc. etc. I am not trying to make an argument pro wealth taxes, I am trying to make an argument against shallow and non-empirical arguments.
- andrewtbham 6y ago
  pg already made the non-empirical argument about the compounding nature of wealth taxes.
jakelazaroff 6y ago
You're cherry picking as well. There are other European countries with a wealth tax [1] — notably Belgium, to which these wealthy people allegedly fled to avoid wealth taxation. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/4-european-countries-wealth-tax-spain-norway-switzerland-belgium-2019-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/4-european-countries-wealth-...
- Joeri 6y ago
  Belgium is a notorious tax haven for the wealthy, because of all the tax loopholes that they can use. https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/magazine/47926/belgium-tax-haven-and-hell/ https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/magazine/47926/belgium-ta...
tempsy 6y ago
you pay income tax (and presumably any wealth tax) no matter where you move to as a US citizen unlike most countries.

troughway 6y ago

Not to derail the topic but “taxing the rich” was one of the bullet points that was supposed to answer where the money for a UBI system would come from. This is exactly how globalization will impact UBI as well, because at the end of the day the manufacturing firms, big corporations and everyone else who is vested in making money will uproot and go elsewhere, where they won’t be taxed so harshly. And just to add, that France even tried to pull that stunt without asking “what happens when they all leave?” is just silly negligence. Of course these people are not dependent on any particular country - they’ve diversified their assets long ago. Strikes me as incredibly narrow minded thinking at a country level. Unbelievable.

eanzenberg 6y ago
I believe UBI zealots moved passed trying to explain how to fund it and now don’t really care.
AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> Not to derail the topic but “taxing the rich” was one of the bullet points that was supposed to answer where the money for a UBI system would come from. Obviously this could as easily refer to any form of taxation that comes disproportionately from the rich. Which, because of what a UBI itself does to the effective rate curve, is actually pretty much all of them. You could use VAT and VAT+UBI is still a progressive tax system, because everyone at the lower income levels is still receiving disproportionately more than they're paying. It actually solves the biggest drawback of a flat tax and allows you to use one while still having the money come disproportionately from people making more of it. > This is exactly how globalization will impact UBI as well, because at the end of the day the manufacturing firms, big corporations and everyone else who is vested in making money will uproot and go elsewhere, where they won’t be taxed so harshly. If you're funding it with VAT or some other consumption tax then it isn't the companies manufacturing there who pay it, it's the ones who sell there. Which they can't avoid by moving their operations somewhere else, because the customers are where they are.
rswail 6y ago
Is anyone proposing a wealth tax on corporate entities? Not that I've seen. Firms/Corporations already engage in massive profit shifting to avoid taxation. That's without any corporate wealth taxes. So why do you think a wealth tax on an individual's wealth would cause corporations to "uproot and go elsewhere"?
- SubuSS 6y ago
  Don't most of these individuals hold bulk of their wealth in corporations? They are probably not sleeping on a few billion dollars :) When they have to pay this tax, they will have to dilute the company which in turn affects their control and hold, possibly even the direction of the company over time. So yes - corporations will eventually feel the heat.

learc83 6y ago

1. The French income tax and wealth tax was extraordinary high. 2. France is part of the EU, there are dozens of countries that French millionaires can move to with almost zero friction. Moving to neighboring Belgium is like moving from New York to New Jersey.

andrewtbham 6y ago
Exactly, it is like moving from Los Angeles to Nashville, or from San Francisco to Austin. Which is what people are doing.
- learc83 6y ago
  Sure and if you impose a tax a national level instead of a state (or EU member country) the diminishing returns for increased taxation occur at a higher rate because it's much harder to move to a new country than it is to move to a new state. Also housing prices probably have more to do with people leaving high priced cities than taxes do.
  - andrewtbham 6y ago
    If you impose a wealth tax at the national level, rich people will leave America (edit: renounce citizenship) and ambitious people will never come here to begin with. America will no longer be the land of opportunity. The US has already passed an exit tax to try to prevent the wealthy from renouncing their citizenship. At some point even an exit tax won't be enough. If you study the fall of the roman empire, you will find people abandon huge estates to just start over away from roman taxes. https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expatriation-tax https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expa...
    - take_a_breath 6y ago
      ==If you impose a wealth tax at the national level, rich people will leave America and ambitious people will never come here to begin with.== This is a pretty absolute claim to make without any sources or data to back it up.

martingoodson 6y ago

The rate of tax must have been very high if people chose to move to Belgium. Countries just need to find a level under the 'Belgium threshold'.

pa7x1 6y ago
Belgium has very high income tax but very low capital gains tax. For already rich people is pretty much a tax haven, for salaried workers is almost confiscatory.
compscistd 6y ago
Or as other commenters pointed out, get some EU intervention

thomasdullien 6y ago

s/cherry picking/showing an example with interesting properties that is different from France/g So this is actually where the discussion should go: What properties does the Swiss wealth tax have (particularly in the wider taxation system) that the French wealth tax did not have? What is needed for a wealth tax to have no negative effects? What about income and capital gains tax at the same time? Etc. etc. I am not trying to make an argument pro wealth taxes, I am trying to make an argument against shallow and non-empirical arguments.

andrewtbham 6y ago
pg already made the non-empirical argument about the compounding nature of wealth taxes.

jakelazaroff 6y ago

You're cherry picking as well. There are other European countries with a wealth tax [1] — notably Belgium, to which these wealthy people allegedly fled to avoid wealth taxation. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/4-european-countries-wealth-tax-spain-norway-switzerland-belgium-2019-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/4-european-countries-wealth-...

Joeri 6y ago
Belgium is a notorious tax haven for the wealthy, because of all the tax loopholes that they can use. https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/magazine/47926/belgium-tax-haven-and-hell/ https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/magazine/47926/belgium-ta...

tempsy 6y ago

you pay income tax (and presumably any wealth tax) no matter where you move to as a US citizen unlike most countries.