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I think that's harsh. Why shouldn't they try building a platform if they want? Who should they ask first? Disclaimer: I have never used Kotlin. I use Scala.

pjmlp 6y ago
All the best for them, as long as the community takes the attitude to appreciate JVM and Java for giving birth to Kotlin, instead of bashing Java as if Kotlin could stand on its own.
- valenterry 6y ago
  But Kotlin is just a much better language. Not sure if you can call that "bashing".
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Which is worthless without the wealth of the Java ecosystem, but apparently Java is a very bad language.
    - elbear 6y ago
      Can't the Java ecosystem be valuable and Java the language be bad at the same time?
      - royjacobs 6y ago
        It could, but Java the language definitely isn't bad. Sure, it's verbose, but it's pretty simple to grok overall. I agree with pjmlp (and I don't even work for Oracle!). I think that once Java has caught up with pattern matching syntax, data classes, fully integrated Loom and Valhalla etc there really isn't a need for Kotlin on the server-side anymore. For Native or frontend stuff it's definitely always going to have to play catch-up and try to shoehorn wildly different semantics into the same language somehow. So I guess it'll end up as a niche language on Android, ultimately. Not necessarily a bad place to be, though!
        valenterry 6y ago
        There is a reason why many people (including me) perceive Java as relatively bad. The language paid a great deal of resources to keep backwards compatibility, which is definitely a thing. They couldn't even just remove the unsafe package even though it was specifically announced to not be compatible with future versions, because of big vendors. And this has a price. Bad language features stay, they make it difficult to introduce new stuff. Also, Java is very conservative in picking up new things. Saying "once Java has caught up" ignores that Kotlin, at that point in time, will be even further ahead of Java most likely. And both of them will never reach feature parity with Scala. ;)
        ragnese 6y ago
        I'm excited for Scala 3! Scala needs a good cleanup.
        valenterry 6y ago
        Totally agree with that! Scala is already much more organized and consistent than both Java and Kotlin (no matter what some people think) but Scala 3 will make that even better - well except for the pyhton-like syntax part, haha.
        royjacobs 6y ago
        Fair, but regarding the catch-up: The main difference is that Java can actively improve things both on the language side and on the JVM side. Kotlin can only improve on the language side.
        kjeetgill 6y ago
        I can't address your specific experiences with Java, Kotlin, or Scala but even just lambdas in just Java took a ton of wind out from beneath their wings. It just hasn't shown to be a race to feature parity in practice. Enough of the Kotlin and Scala user bases just really do want a better Java, often in just one or two ways. Personally, and more controversially, I don't think Java getting pattern matching in switches or sealed classes is going to move the needle a ton. (Sorry, Brian!) It's going to be Loom and Records that really change things.
- avasthe 6y ago
  You are biased because you don't like that the age of companies selling expensive development environments is over. And you jump in to defend Oracle every discussion. I respect your knowledge and breadth of experience, but your biases are apparent.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    You mean like IntelliJ, Clion? Yes I don't hide what I think out of political correctness, it is up to the receivers to deal with it.

pjmlp 6y ago

All the best for them, as long as the community takes the attitude to appreciate JVM and Java for giving birth to Kotlin, instead of bashing Java as if Kotlin could stand on its own.

valenterry 6y ago
But Kotlin is just a much better language. Not sure if you can call that "bashing".
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Which is worthless without the wealth of the Java ecosystem, but apparently Java is a very bad language.
  - elbear 6y ago
    Can't the Java ecosystem be valuable and Java the language be bad at the same time?
    - royjacobs 6y ago
      It could, but Java the language definitely isn't bad. Sure, it's verbose, but it's pretty simple to grok overall. I agree with pjmlp (and I don't even work for Oracle!). I think that once Java has caught up with pattern matching syntax, data classes, fully integrated Loom and Valhalla etc there really isn't a need for Kotlin on the server-side anymore. For Native or frontend stuff it's definitely always going to have to play catch-up and try to shoehorn wildly different semantics into the same language somehow. So I guess it'll end up as a niche language on Android, ultimately. Not necessarily a bad place to be, though!
      - valenterry 6y ago
        There is a reason why many people (including me) perceive Java as relatively bad. The language paid a great deal of resources to keep backwards compatibility, which is definitely a thing. They couldn't even just remove the unsafe package even though it was specifically announced to not be compatible with future versions, because of big vendors. And this has a price. Bad language features stay, they make it difficult to introduce new stuff. Also, Java is very conservative in picking up new things. Saying "once Java has caught up" ignores that Kotlin, at that point in time, will be even further ahead of Java most likely. And both of them will never reach feature parity with Scala. ;)
        ragnese 6y ago
        I'm excited for Scala 3! Scala needs a good cleanup.
        valenterry 6y ago
        Totally agree with that! Scala is already much more organized and consistent than both Java and Kotlin (no matter what some people think) but Scala 3 will make that even better - well except for the pyhton-like syntax part, haha.
        royjacobs 6y ago
        Fair, but regarding the catch-up: The main difference is that Java can actively improve things both on the language side and on the JVM side. Kotlin can only improve on the language side.
        kjeetgill 6y ago
        I can't address your specific experiences with Java, Kotlin, or Scala but even just lambdas in just Java took a ton of wind out from beneath their wings. It just hasn't shown to be a race to feature parity in practice. Enough of the Kotlin and Scala user bases just really do want a better Java, often in just one or two ways. Personally, and more controversially, I don't think Java getting pattern matching in switches or sealed classes is going to move the needle a ton. (Sorry, Brian!) It's going to be Loom and Records that really change things.
avasthe 6y ago
You are biased because you don't like that the age of companies selling expensive development environments is over. And you jump in to defend Oracle every discussion. I respect your knowledge and breadth of experience, but your biases are apparent.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  You mean like IntelliJ, Clion? Yes I don't hide what I think out of political correctness, it is up to the receivers to deal with it.