5 ms·

" Whatever the price of the Chinese Revolution, it has obviously succeeded not only in producing more efficient and dedicated administration, but also in foster

" Whatever the price of the Chinese Revolution, it has obviously succeeded not only in producing more efficient and dedicated administration, but also in fostering high morale and community of purpose. The social experiment in China under Chairman Mao's leadership is one of the most important and successful in human history." -D. Rockefeller

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
"Whatever the price"... in this case genocide and cannibalism.
uep 6y ago
This is not at all what the article is about? I do not think the Chinese are as unified as they are made out to be. I think it's a joke to pretend that China is some ideal to aspire to, but sadly, I think the West will have to use similar tactics to continue to compete. I believe a big part of China's current strength is by actively exploiting the weaknesses of Capitalism. For a long time, they've exploited the race-to-the-bottom of pricing, and they've gotten rich from it, partially through the sacrifice of their people. Now that China has that new-found wealth (the country and the people), they are using that wealth to exploit Capitalism in a different way. Since Capitalism is inherently less directed and "top-down", now they're able to manipulate industries by being a big buyer instead. This is inherently part of Capitalism, but since the Chinese government has a more direct control of their economy, they're able to leverage a huge amount of economic power in a more directed fashion. You want to sell that product here? Well, you're going to have to do it our way. Western governments will have to do the same, putting restrictions on what compromises Western companies are allowed to make, and putting restrictions on Chinese products as well.
- gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
  Capitalism also expresses preferences and values. I suspect free people (consumers) see creepy stuff like cyber-dystopian Uighur genocide and when given the chance will go full behind whatever opportunity they have to say “screw you China.”
  - ianleeclark 6y ago
    > I suspect free people (consumers) see creepy stuff like cyber-dystopian Uighur genocide The information asymmetry is massive that I don't think this tracks reality. Many people just tune out news, others never notice "made in China" stickers, and, what I would suspect to be your average consumer, likely just wants the cheapest toaster. Furthermore, as the Chinese consumer base is more heavily catered to and grows in wealth, companies are going to ditch the current consumer of last resort and further focus their strategies in China.
    - rbecker 6y ago
      "Made in China" stickers themselves are only there due to state intervention.
    - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
      Idk say what you will about Trump and right populism more broadly, it seems to be almost completely typified by the “why isn’t this made in the USA!?” sentiment. Pretty ubiquitous and as much as I resent protectionism, it’s in full swing. Even the Bernie contingent too.
- beaunative 6y ago
  Exploiting the weakness of capitalism sounds like a joke, because capitalism is the ideal American claims to be persuing but somehow if China wins, it's exploiting the weakness of capitalism, and if America wins it's another victory of our democracy.
  - uep 6y ago
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. It sounds like you're saying that I'm somehow framing my opinion in a dishonest way, but I'm not sure in what way you're claiming it is dishonest. Is it because my comment isn't pro-authoritarian/totalitarian?
Isinlor 6y ago
Is this some kind of sarcasm? Do you know about The Great Chinese Famine due to The Great Leap Forward (Backward) under Mao? Between 18 million and 45 million starved to death due to failings of centrally planned economy. The single biggest man made disaster in the whole of humanity history. The today success of China can be traced to Deng Xiaoping opening of the country and the free market reforms the so called socialism with Chinese characteristics.
- recursivedoubts 6y ago
  I am quoting David Rockefeller, an important member of the ruling class in America, to give context as to why the west might be becoming more like China.
  - blaser-waffle 6y ago
    > important member of the ruling class Bullocks. He was a rich dude who didn't know dick about what was happening in China. At the time the CCP was recovering from the horrible starvation of the Great Leap Forward, and the over-the-top excesses, murders, and repression of the Cultural Revolution. That quote is a rich dude talking out his ass about shit he didn't know.
    - baybal2 6y ago
      No, > That quote is a rich dude talking out his ass about shit he didn't know. He knew it very well, but still chose to lie. I don't think the guys was that much of a complete idiot. This is pretty much like how the current American establishment tries to sell Americans the rationale for its bizarre alliance with the Saudi tinpot kingdom. And it is also completely no wonder how Saudis started to get into trouble with USA the moment they started to close the door on American money.
magicsmoke 6y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/1973/08/10/archives/from-a-china-traveler.html https://www.nytimes.com/1973/08/10/archives/from-a-china-tra... Source of the quote in 1973. The west knew far less about China in 1973 when it was opening up after decades of isolation than it does today.

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago

"Whatever the price"... in this case genocide and cannibalism.

uep 6y ago

This is not at all what the article is about? I do not think the Chinese are as unified as they are made out to be. I think it's a joke to pretend that China is some ideal to aspire to, but sadly, I think the West will have to use similar tactics to continue to compete. I believe a big part of China's current strength is by actively exploiting the weaknesses of Capitalism. For a long time, they've exploited the race-to-the-bottom of pricing, and they've gotten rich from it, partially through the sacrifice of their people. Now that China has that new-found wealth (the country and the people), they are using that wealth to exploit Capitalism in a different way. Since Capitalism is inherently less directed and "top-down", now they're able to manipulate industries by being a big buyer instead. This is inherently part of Capitalism, but since the Chinese government has a more direct control of their economy, they're able to leverage a huge amount of economic power in a more directed fashion. You want to sell that product here? Well, you're going to have to do it our way. Western governments will have to do the same, putting restrictions on what compromises Western companies are allowed to make, and putting restrictions on Chinese products as well.

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
Capitalism also expresses preferences and values. I suspect free people (consumers) see creepy stuff like cyber-dystopian Uighur genocide and when given the chance will go full behind whatever opportunity they have to say “screw you China.”
- ianleeclark 6y ago
  > I suspect free people (consumers) see creepy stuff like cyber-dystopian Uighur genocide The information asymmetry is massive that I don't think this tracks reality. Many people just tune out news, others never notice "made in China" stickers, and, what I would suspect to be your average consumer, likely just wants the cheapest toaster. Furthermore, as the Chinese consumer base is more heavily catered to and grows in wealth, companies are going to ditch the current consumer of last resort and further focus their strategies in China.
  - rbecker 6y ago
    "Made in China" stickers themselves are only there due to state intervention.
  - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
    Idk say what you will about Trump and right populism more broadly, it seems to be almost completely typified by the “why isn’t this made in the USA!?” sentiment. Pretty ubiquitous and as much as I resent protectionism, it’s in full swing. Even the Bernie contingent too.
beaunative 6y ago
Exploiting the weakness of capitalism sounds like a joke, because capitalism is the ideal American claims to be persuing but somehow if China wins, it's exploiting the weakness of capitalism, and if America wins it's another victory of our democracy.
- uep 6y ago
  I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. It sounds like you're saying that I'm somehow framing my opinion in a dishonest way, but I'm not sure in what way you're claiming it is dishonest. Is it because my comment isn't pro-authoritarian/totalitarian?

Isinlor 6y ago

Is this some kind of sarcasm? Do you know about The Great Chinese Famine due to The Great Leap Forward (Backward) under Mao? Between 18 million and 45 million starved to death due to failings of centrally planned economy. The single biggest man made disaster in the whole of humanity history. The today success of China can be traced to Deng Xiaoping opening of the country and the free market reforms the so called socialism with Chinese characteristics.

recursivedoubts 6y ago
I am quoting David Rockefeller, an important member of the ruling class in America, to give context as to why the west might be becoming more like China.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  > important member of the ruling class Bullocks. He was a rich dude who didn't know dick about what was happening in China. At the time the CCP was recovering from the horrible starvation of the Great Leap Forward, and the over-the-top excesses, murders, and repression of the Cultural Revolution. That quote is a rich dude talking out his ass about shit he didn't know.
  - baybal2 6y ago
    No, > That quote is a rich dude talking out his ass about shit he didn't know. He knew it very well, but still chose to lie. I don't think the guys was that much of a complete idiot. This is pretty much like how the current American establishment tries to sell Americans the rationale for its bizarre alliance with the Saudi tinpot kingdom. And it is also completely no wonder how Saudis started to get into trouble with USA the moment they started to close the door on American money.

magicsmoke 6y ago

https://www.nytimes.com/1973/08/10/archives/from-a-china-traveler.html https://www.nytimes.com/1973/08/10/archives/from-a-china-tra... Source of the quote in 1973. The west knew far less about China in 1973 when it was opening up after decades of isolation than it does today.