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> Kotlin users typically bash Java You mean the Java programming language, or the Java Virtual Machine?

by MaxBarraclough 6y ago

pjmlp 6y ago
Both, given that 80% of most JVM implementations are Java as well.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  That doesn't sound right. Why would Kotlin programmers dislike the JVM platform just because it tends to be implemented in Java (and C++)? The Python and Lua interpreters are written in C. V8 is written in C++, SpiderMonkey in C/C++. The Rust compiler backend is LLVM, written in C++. The GNAT Ada compiler is powered by GCC, written in C. So what? These implementations work fine. Directly competing with the JVM makes little sense. Countless millions of dollars of effort have been poured into OpenJDK.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Well apparently they think otherwise given the amount of Java bashing I see in most Kotlin related forums. Your list was a bit cherry picked, GNAT frontend is Ada and other Ada compilers are fully bootstrapped. And GCC has been C++ for quite some time as well. Plus There are JVMs like JikesRVM and GraalVM, 100% Java.
  - The_Colonel 6y ago
    Because it's not true. JVM is fine piece of engineering and Kotlin devs have no problem with it.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Apparently they do, otherwise the forums wouldn't be full with Java this and Java that. Somehow those Kotlin devs have missed the boat that JVMs implementations have between 80% and 100% Java code, depending on which implementation from the top 10 JVMs one is talking about.
- ragnese 6y ago
  You're basically trolling at this point. Java the language has major shortcomings, including an absolutely neutered and broken type system. Kotlin is an improvement, but still limited by its Java roots. The JVM is a specific product. When people criticize Java, they are almost always only referring to the language called "Java".
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Kotlin fanboys are the ones trolling, good luck on Android playground, that it everything that will be left of Kotlin in 10 years time. JVM does not exist without the code written in Java that encompasses between 80% to 100%, depending on the implementation. Maybe those worshiping Kotlin should take some lessons in JVM implementations, before bashing the infrastructure that made Kotlin possible.
    - ragnese 6y ago
      You're building strawmen. Nobody is bashing the infrastructure. As in, nobody is bashing the JVM. They're (we're) bashing Java-the-language. 1. The first JVM was surely not written in Java. Therefore JVM != Java 2. A JVM can be written in any language. Therefore JVM != Java You could write a JVM in brainfuck if you wanted to. That doesn't mean Kotlin isn't a much more sane language than brainfuck.

> Kotlin users typically bash Java You mean the Java programming language, or the Java Virtual Machine?

pjmlp 6y ago

Both, given that 80% of most JVM implementations are Java as well.

MaxBarraclough 6y ago
That doesn't sound right. Why would Kotlin programmers dislike the JVM platform just because it tends to be implemented in Java (and C++)? The Python and Lua interpreters are written in C. V8 is written in C++, SpiderMonkey in C/C++. The Rust compiler backend is LLVM, written in C++. The GNAT Ada compiler is powered by GCC, written in C. So what? These implementations work fine. Directly competing with the JVM makes little sense. Countless millions of dollars of effort have been poured into OpenJDK.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Well apparently they think otherwise given the amount of Java bashing I see in most Kotlin related forums. Your list was a bit cherry picked, GNAT frontend is Ada and other Ada compilers are fully bootstrapped. And GCC has been C++ for quite some time as well. Plus There are JVMs like JikesRVM and GraalVM, 100% Java.
- The_Colonel 6y ago
  Because it's not true. JVM is fine piece of engineering and Kotlin devs have no problem with it.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Apparently they do, otherwise the forums wouldn't be full with Java this and Java that. Somehow those Kotlin devs have missed the boat that JVMs implementations have between 80% and 100% Java code, depending on which implementation from the top 10 JVMs one is talking about.
ragnese 6y ago
You're basically trolling at this point. Java the language has major shortcomings, including an absolutely neutered and broken type system. Kotlin is an improvement, but still limited by its Java roots. The JVM is a specific product. When people criticize Java, they are almost always only referring to the language called "Java".
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Kotlin fanboys are the ones trolling, good luck on Android playground, that it everything that will be left of Kotlin in 10 years time. JVM does not exist without the code written in Java that encompasses between 80% to 100%, depending on the implementation. Maybe those worshiping Kotlin should take some lessons in JVM implementations, before bashing the infrastructure that made Kotlin possible.
  - ragnese 6y ago
    You're building strawmen. Nobody is bashing the infrastructure. As in, nobody is bashing the JVM. They're (we're) bashing Java-the-language. 1. The first JVM was surely not written in Java. Therefore JVM != Java 2. A JVM can be written in any language. Therefore JVM != Java You could write a JVM in brainfuck if you wanted to. That doesn't mean Kotlin isn't a much more sane language than brainfuck.