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I love CL. Absolutely love it. But these sorts of articles (this one is actually quite a few years old) just depress me. It's as if every one who defends CL has

by hvs 16y ago

I love CL. Absolutely love it. But these sorts of articles (this one is actually quite a few years old) just depress me. It's as if every one who defends CL has to make these sorts of "It's only a flesh wound!" sorts of arguments. With all deference to PG, one web application in over 10 years does not an argument make. Like I said, I love CL, I use CL, but it is not a popular language and I can't blame any company that chooses to go with Python or Ruby simply due to inertia of the languages. And don't get me started on how you are supposed to decide how to choose an implementation of CL...

gaius 16y ago
The annoying thing is, I can't use LispWorks with an RDBMS unless I pay for the Enterprise Edition. So I can't even do a pilot project without it being "official" within the company. So there is zero possibility of a grassroots adoption happening. Contrast this with Oracle. One of the most money-obsessed companies in the world, I'm sure we'd all agree. But you can download Oracle Enterprise Edition for free with zero fuss and kick the tyres. They don't care, no time limit or size limit or anything, until you go into production with it.
- ScottBurson 16y ago
  The open-source CL world has been slowly improving over the last several years. SBCL with CLSQL might work just fine for you.
- lispm 16y ago
  That's really simple. You can get time limited full versions of LispWorks Enterprise from them. Let them know how long you need to evaluate the product.
- mahmud 16y ago
  You can't also access an RDBMs from C without paying for Visual Studio Enterprise Edition, or using any of the myriad of Free compilers out there that are much better anyway, which everyone else uses.
- tomjen3 16y ago
  That's stupid, but it shouldn't be a dealbreaker. First, you can get a time limited version, which may work. Or you can write a wrapper around the few parts of the C api you need to use for your project.
praptak 16y ago
> chooses to go with Python or Ruby simply due to inertia of the languages Not sure if that's inertia of the languages. My Python path started with a) having only heard it's good for scripting/prototyping and b) the need for a quick way to test a SOAP interface. Nobody in the company used it at that time, so language inertia was heavily against Python. I had the first successful SOAP call within hours of downloading the implementation (yup, the is important). Googling for Lisp soap client gave some links for an implementation on commercial Lisp (deal breaker at this stage) and one whose quickstart docs start with at least three required dependencies "Make sure X works for you", "get package Y", and so on. My point is that "batteries included" really makes a difference.
- gaius 16y ago
  It's ironic when PG says Lisp is a "bottom up" language that it's so hard to get it into a company in a bottom-up way. Whereas Python always starts off being used by one person for their personal work, then as others see how productive they are/it is it snowballs from there.
  - hvs 16y ago
    I agree with you, although I do a fair amount of personal scripting in lisp to make me more productive at work. But for things like that, I could just as easily use Python, and Python is more readily accepted by other developers at my company. It's no use pretending otherwise, "what's with all the parenthesis?" is still a major roadblock to acceptance.
    - ldh 16y ago
      It's no use pretending otherwise, "what's with all the parenthesis?" is still a major roadblock to acceptance. Sigh. One might imagine a similar objection such as "what's with all the significant whitespace", but apparently that shocks people less than a few parentheses. I wish more developers would see radically unfamiliar syntax as an opportunity to discover ideas they might be missing out on.
    - parfe 16y ago

by hvs 16y ago

gaius 16y ago

The annoying thing is, I can't use LispWorks with an RDBMS unless I pay for the Enterprise Edition. So I can't even do a pilot project without it being "official" within the company. So there is zero possibility of a grassroots adoption happening. Contrast this with Oracle. One of the most money-obsessed companies in the world, I'm sure we'd all agree. But you can download Oracle Enterprise Edition for free with zero fuss and kick the tyres. They don't care, no time limit or size limit or anything, until you go into production with it.

ScottBurson 16y ago
The open-source CL world has been slowly improving over the last several years. SBCL with CLSQL might work just fine for you.
lispm 16y ago
That's really simple. You can get time limited full versions of LispWorks Enterprise from them. Let them know how long you need to evaluate the product.
mahmud 16y ago
You can't also access an RDBMs from C without paying for Visual Studio Enterprise Edition, or using any of the myriad of Free compilers out there that are much better anyway, which everyone else uses.
tomjen3 16y ago
That's stupid, but it shouldn't be a dealbreaker. First, you can get a time limited version, which may work. Or you can write a wrapper around the few parts of the C api you need to use for your project.

praptak 16y ago

> chooses to go with Python or Ruby simply due to inertia of the languages Not sure if that's inertia of the languages. My Python path started with a) having only heard it's good for scripting/prototyping and b) the need for a quick way to test a SOAP interface. Nobody in the company used it at that time, so language inertia was heavily against Python. I had the first successful SOAP call within hours of downloading the implementation (yup, the is important). Googling for Lisp soap client gave some links for an implementation on commercial Lisp (deal breaker at this stage) and one whose quickstart docs start with at least three required dependencies "Make sure X works for you", "get package Y", and so on. My point is that "batteries included" really makes a difference.

gaius 16y ago
It's ironic when PG says Lisp is a "bottom up" language that it's so hard to get it into a company in a bottom-up way. Whereas Python always starts off being used by one person for their personal work, then as others see how productive they are/it is it snowballs from there.
- hvs 16y ago
  I agree with you, although I do a fair amount of personal scripting in lisp to make me more productive at work. But for things like that, I could just as easily use Python, and Python is more readily accepted by other developers at my company. It's no use pretending otherwise, "what's with all the parenthesis?" is still a major roadblock to acceptance.
  - ldh 16y ago
    It's no use pretending otherwise, "what's with all the parenthesis?" is still a major roadblock to acceptance. Sigh. One might imagine a similar objection such as "what's with all the significant whitespace", but apparently that shocks people less than a few parentheses. I wish more developers would see radically unfamiliar syntax as an opportunity to discover ideas they might be missing out on.
  - parfe 16y ago