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> The "instructors" there are given explicit instruction not to advise anyone and just get them to listen to the tapes (which are very much steeped in religious

> The "instructors" there are given explicit instruction not to advise anyone and just get them to listen to the tapes (which are very much steeped in religious Buddhism). So anyone who's struggling, in a weird mindstate, and unsure what's happening to them, and goes to a course leader for advice, won't get any advice other than to buckle down and listen to the tapes, and that often results in misapplying the technique, buckling down too hard, and not relaxing enough, which can cause the mind to... snap, I guess. That depends on the 'Assistant Teacher' that is running the course. Maybe some are more willing than others to riff on Goenka's teachings, but from what I've seen most ATs have been willing to give their time to the students. I believe, there are actually other ordained 'Teachers' that tour at the Goenka schools, presumably with their own take on things. > that isn't usually disclosed to people, there isn't much informed consent. The people who are seeking that usually know what they're getting into. It's right their in the discourses. And though discouraged, students can leave at any time. Also, to be fair, they do ask each student probing questions about mental state, medications etc. before giving permission to enter the course. I stated that I took alcohol at most once a week, and this was enough concern for them to ask me to clarify. The last thing they need during a silent course is someone losing the plot, or going into withdrawls.

lewispollard 6y ago
That's true, it can depend on the volunteers and the locations of the centres themselves, so it's a bit of a gamble. I've talked to a few of people who've been travelling in Asia and attended Goenka retreats after huge benders, having never meditated before, because "why not, I've got 10 days left on my visa and need to detox". Then the teachers don't speak any English in some cases. Although one person I met who had done exactly that said it was the best experience of his life, getting through it. So there's that. I'm not condemning the retreats entirely, I just think that having a complete or even relative beginner sit a 10 day intensive vipassana retreat after basically just checking if they do drugs or take medication or not is quite a risk, and people should know that risk. My friend who had a good experience said he had no clue what he was getting into and thought it would just be a nice relaxing experience that feels good. Having presumably sat one, you'll know that's usually not the case, at least for the first 6 or 7 days, which is a long time, and can be very intense when all the advice you get is "keep going and listening to the tapes". > It's right their in the discourses. Also true, to be clear I think that Goenka courses are great resources for people who have sat shorter retreats before or have a long-term, stable practice. It's the "jumping in at the deep end" type stuff that happens, partially because they're free and so easy to access, partly because of the "boot camp" style image, that's risky. Many people aren't inclined to dive into early Buddhist texts and make sense of its philosophy and practice before attending a retreat for the first time.
- h0l0cube 6y ago
  > basically just checking if they do drugs or take medication or not is quite a risk The questions were a bit more probing than that. One question was something like, 'How are your relations with your family?', and I think there were questions about mental history etc. > Also true, to be clear I think that Goenka courses are great resources for people who have sat shorter retreats before or have a long-term, stable practice. It's the "jumping in at the deep end" type stuff that happens, partially because they're free and so easy to access, partly because of the "boot camp" style image, that's risky. Many people aren't inclined to dive into early Buddhist texts and make sense of its philosophy and practice before attending a retreat for the first time. Much of the seriousness of the retreat is described on the dhamma.org website. I had read and understood this before I signed up. I think I may have even had to confirm that I had read this before I was able to apply. However, it's likely a lot of people just skip this like the T&Cs on their Facebook account. So I do agree with you, it would probably be to the benefit of the students to at least be aware of the seriousness of the course, and for this to be better communicated. I had maybe sat 10 or so 1-hour meditation workshops just casually at festivals before I took my course. I had very little about Buddhist philosophy or practice, so I was very much diving in at the deep end, but I entered the course knowing it was a serious psychological intervention from the introduction on the website. During the course, I found the discourse tapes enough to give a satisfactory explanation of what I ought to be aiming for, and sometimes they even pre-empted questions or conflicts I had in my mind.
  - lewispollard 6y ago
    It's great that it worked for you, I'm glad :)
    - h0l0cube 6y ago
      I didn't say, but yes, the technique did end up work for me with some very tangible positive outcomes :) And I still practice.

lewispollard 6y ago

That's true, it can depend on the volunteers and the locations of the centres themselves, so it's a bit of a gamble. I've talked to a few of people who've been travelling in Asia and attended Goenka retreats after huge benders, having never meditated before, because "why not, I've got 10 days left on my visa and need to detox". Then the teachers don't speak any English in some cases. Although one person I met who had done exactly that said it was the best experience of his life, getting through it. So there's that. I'm not condemning the retreats entirely, I just think that having a complete or even relative beginner sit a 10 day intensive vipassana retreat after basically just checking if they do drugs or take medication or not is quite a risk, and people should know that risk. My friend who had a good experience said he had no clue what he was getting into and thought it would just be a nice relaxing experience that feels good. Having presumably sat one, you'll know that's usually not the case, at least for the first 6 or 7 days, which is a long time, and can be very intense when all the advice you get is "keep going and listening to the tapes". > It's right their in the discourses. Also true, to be clear I think that Goenka courses are great resources for people who have sat shorter retreats before or have a long-term, stable practice. It's the "jumping in at the deep end" type stuff that happens, partially because they're free and so easy to access, partly because of the "boot camp" style image, that's risky. Many people aren't inclined to dive into early Buddhist texts and make sense of its philosophy and practice before attending a retreat for the first time.

h0l0cube 6y ago
> basically just checking if they do drugs or take medication or not is quite a risk The questions were a bit more probing than that. One question was something like, 'How are your relations with your family?', and I think there were questions about mental history etc. > Also true, to be clear I think that Goenka courses are great resources for people who have sat shorter retreats before or have a long-term, stable practice. It's the "jumping in at the deep end" type stuff that happens, partially because they're free and so easy to access, partly because of the "boot camp" style image, that's risky. Many people aren't inclined to dive into early Buddhist texts and make sense of its philosophy and practice before attending a retreat for the first time. Much of the seriousness of the retreat is described on the dhamma.org website. I had read and understood this before I signed up. I think I may have even had to confirm that I had read this before I was able to apply. However, it's likely a lot of people just skip this like the T&Cs on their Facebook account. So I do agree with you, it would probably be to the benefit of the students to at least be aware of the seriousness of the course, and for this to be better communicated. I had maybe sat 10 or so 1-hour meditation workshops just casually at festivals before I took my course. I had very little about Buddhist philosophy or practice, so I was very much diving in at the deep end, but I entered the course knowing it was a serious psychological intervention from the introduction on the website. During the course, I found the discourse tapes enough to give a satisfactory explanation of what I ought to be aiming for, and sometimes they even pre-empted questions or conflicts I had in my mind.
- lewispollard 6y ago
  It's great that it worked for you, I'm glad :)
  - h0l0cube 6y ago
    I didn't say, but yes, the technique did end up work for me with some very tangible positive outcomes :) And I still practice.