8 ms·

> Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, maybe we ha

> Yeah, you're right. That is the outcome that we want. We want multiple stores on iOS. I thought advocates for this position had been really clear, maybe we haven't been clear enough though. Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. You want another option of App Stores because you want don't want to pay for the user base that Apple created and maintains. You want to embed permanent location tracking in your apps, abuse user data, and not have to have your crappy practices out in the open when Apple shows the "nutrition scorecard" for your app. That's not what I want on my iPhone. If your app doesn't conform to the App Store, then that's your problem, not mine. I'll vote with my dollars here. I want the iPhone just the way it is, even if that means fewer apps from bad actors. > We live in a world where Apple has complete control over the app ecosystem, and you're frightened that another company might get control and... offer better terms than we have right now? Yes that's exactly what I want. I want Apple to have complete control over the ecosystem. They've earned my complete trust.

immigrantsheep 6y ago
Instagram and TikTok have been found guilty on collecting an absurd amount of data against user's wishes. How did Apple's policy prevent that? Also I don't see Apple banning TikTok or Instagram.
- MR4D 6y ago
  Let's go with this for a start: https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/07/30/facebook-says-apples-ios-14-could-hinder-ad-revenue https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/07/30/facebook-says-app... Also, notice that FB has done everything possible to gather information. Frankly, the NSA should just hire FB to do their work - it'b be faster and cheaper. Locking stuff down is hard. Doing it with multiple app stores will be impossible.
  - sprafa 6y ago
    Isn’t PRISM basically using FB to do NSA work for them anyhow?
    - MR4D 6y ago
      Probably. Which was kinda my point - monitoring these rule breakers is hard.
      - immigrantsheep 6y ago
        And yet even after these things surfaced, nothing happened to the apps. Not everyone is equal.
martin8412 6y ago
I can only say I agree. I don't want more actors in the appstore market. I prefer quality over quantity.
enragedcacti 6y ago
...just don't use other app stores? Honest question, what do you lose by other people having the option?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- y7 6y ago
  Because it leads to fragmentation. If developers have a choice of app stores, then users have to install ALL app stores if they want access to the entire market. This happened with streaming services as well: when Netflix was the only prominent one, only that subscription was enough. Now you also need Amazon, Hulu, etc.
  - enragedcacti 6y ago
    If enough users agree with the parent comment that the app store is the best way get software then companies can weigh that user base against the 30% cut. Why should we force the users who don't like the App Store (or want apps that are incompatible with Apple's business model) to suffer on behalf of the users who don't?
    - ghostwriter 6y ago
      Nobody forces anyone into interaction with Apple ecosystem. People want to get onto App Store because they know they can benefit from it, financially big. And they subscribe voluntarily by the most fair means of it, by trading their money in exchange for the service under the rules that are mentioned prior the transaction takes place.
      - enragedcacti 6y ago
        By omitting details and framing each transaction as an isolated incident, you can make almost any monopoly or anti-consumer practice sound like just another business. Nobody forces anyone into interaction with Carnegie Steel. People want to use their steel because they know they can benefit from it, financially big. And they purchase it voluntarily by the most fair means of it, by trading their money in exchange for the steel under the rules that are mentioned prior the transaction takes place.
emsy 6y ago
You’re certainly not speaking for me and the many many devs that were harmed by Apple’s arbitrary application of rules. I also want so see people get wild and creative with apps. This doesn’t happen if you’re pre-censoring because you’re unsure if Apple would allow the app.
danShumway 6y ago
To be charitable: If the only people arguing about this lawsuit fell into either my camp or yours (ericmay's), I'd be a lot less irritated about this whole debate. I fundamentally disagree with you, but at least your arguments are relatively internally consistent. At least I understand where you're coming from. Give me a hundred people saying, "I like Apple being a dictator", just get rid of all the awful arguments about how, "there is no right side, and both of them are in the wrong." I couldn't care less whether or not people like Epic in particular. If you spend all of your time getting picky about who can and can't advocate for you, then eventually people will stop advocating for you altogether.
archagon 6y ago
For someone who has a massive Steam library, why wouldn't they want their Steam games to be available on iOS as well? (For those games that have ports.) I think there's a huge number of people in this boat.
rndgermandude 6y ago
>Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. Then don't install them? But I fail to see why you (or Apple) should be in a position to tell other users what they can install or not. >You want another option of App Stores because you want don't want to pay for the user base that Apple created and maintains. lolwat Honestly, I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. >You want to embed permanent location tracking in your apps, abuse user data, and not have to have your crappy practices out in the open when Apple shows the "nutrition scorecard" for your app. This is a typical "think of the children" argument once more. Nobody forces you to install that tracking shit. You're free to not use apps that do that - e.g. get your apps from the Apple App Store, or make your own app if there is no such tracking free alternative. But those Apple App Store approved apps you seem to be so fond of... they do track you already ;) >That's not what I want on my iPhone. Then don't put use it on your iPhone. >Yes that's exactly what I want. I want Apple to have complete control over the ecosystem. They've earned my complete trust. Good for you. Nobody is stopping you from exercising your trust and only use Apple and/or Apple-approved software in the future.
- ghostwriter 6y ago
  > But I fail to see why you (or Apple) should be in a position to tell other users what they can install or not. Because it's their platform, they created it, they grew it, they paid for its development out of their pocket, and they offered it as a unique market proposition that satisfies millions of users around the world. Apple doesn't force anyone into their platform, everyone involved are there voluntarily and solely because they know that it's beneficial for them to be on the platform.
- LexGray 6y ago
  I think a good option here would be for Apple to sell jailbroken developer phones for say an additional 30% cut up front and a nice DEV brand on the back for bragging rights. The additional fee hurdle would discourage those who just want a cheap way to get paid software and whatever additional expenses from helping with malware.
kelnos 6y ago
I don't own an iPhone in large part because I cannot install an alternative app store or install non-Apple approved apps. > Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. Why do you care? If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't. The games available on Apple's store will continue to adhere to Apple's rules, and if you want that curation, you still get it. > They've earned my complete trust. This blind devotion to the Apple Way is baffling, especially considering how Apple-approved apps are not free of the tracking and user-data abuse you (correctly!) rail against.
- jdminhbg 6y ago
  > Why do you care? If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't. The games available on Apple's store will continue to adhere to Apple's rules, and if you want that curation, you still get it. Apple users care because if non-App Store distribution methods are banned, then developers are forced to go through Apple's process to get access to them. You can see complaints around this thread about how bad Epic's store on PC is. On iOS, they're forced to use Apple's purchase UI, subscription rules, privacy rules, etc.
  - enragedcacti 6y ago
    If it provides that much consumer value then people shouldn't be worried about a little bit of competition. This feels more to me like a certain subset of users siding with Apple because their values happen to align with Apple's avenue for generating profit from the App Store. If Apple's goal was protecting their consumers, they could easily roll back the contested parts of their policy while protecting consumers AND still make a profit.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    If Apple doesn't want competition, maybe they should address the reasons why people want that competition. If the App Store's terms and review policies were attractive to these kinds of developers, they wouldn't push so hard to have their own store. And if the only policies that these developers had to legitimately complain about were the ones that protect users, they'd be laughed out of town. But that doesn't seem to be the case.
dwild 6y ago
And how does having multiple app store would stop anything that you want? It wouldn't stop the Apple app store from existing with theses restrictions, they would still be there. You would still have access to the apps that Apple consider fine for their stores, without installing another app store. Win-win for everyone. > You want to embed permanent location tracking in your apps, abuse user data, and not have to have your crappy practices out in the open when Apple shows the "nutrition scorecard" for your app. How about stopping theses practice on the OS side of the device? Apple already do that there... I agree completely that it's crazy when an OS allow stuff that we don't want to allow, it's not curation that solve this, it's actually a secure system that does.
Slartie 6y ago
> Right, and the rest of us don't want that Please stop speaking for others. I would certainly like to have the ability to install other sources for apps. Since I am part of "the rest of us", for any kind of "us" that came to my mind while reading your posting ("iPhone users" or "Apple customers" or "HN readers"), your statement is patently false. > That's not what I want on my iPhone. Then don't install additional stores. I also don't want most of the apps currently available in Apple's app store on my iPhone, but I'm far from demanding that they are to be banned and other people who want to use them should be prevented from doing so. Also it's too sad you conspicuously skipped over danShumways question regarding the "bigger moat" - because I indeed would be interested in what moat you are imagining there, too.
- ericmay 6y ago
  > Please stop speaking for others. Same to you and the GP here. And last I checked there aren’t a lot of customers really complaining about the App Store. It’s just big companies who, although they could have done this years ago, are now going against Apple’s customer protection because it degrades their crappy business practices. > Then don’t install additional stores Then buy a different phone? I want any app that doesn’t follow Apple’s guidelines to be completely banned. Goodbye Epic. Nice knowing you. Don’t care. I don’t want apps spying on me, engaging in shitty business practices, scamming customers, and doing bad things. Apple is working to protect my privacy and safety. They’re not perfect, but that’s why I buy an iPhone and I want it to stay that way. If I wanted another App Store I’d buy a different phone, like you should.
  - enragedcacti 6y ago
    Are you incapable of self control to the point of not being able to stop yourself from using a different app store? Or is it that you know Apple's cut is onerous enough that given competition, most the apps would leave? It feels like you want other users to suffer on the basis that your values happen to align with Apple's avenue for generating profit. If Apple were in it for your privacy and safety they could drop their cut substantially and kneecap most of the controversy.
  - 6y ago
strictnein 6y ago
No corporation should ever have your "complete trust", because they do not value you above themselves.
colinmhayes 6y ago
This take is absolutely insane. Competition has never hurt consumers. There is no downside to more app stores, only huge upsides in the reduced fees.

immigrantsheep 6y ago

Instagram and TikTok have been found guilty on collecting an absurd amount of data against user's wishes. How did Apple's policy prevent that? Also I don't see Apple banning TikTok or Instagram.

MR4D 6y ago
Let's go with this for a start: https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/07/30/facebook-says-apples-ios-14-could-hinder-ad-revenue https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/07/30/facebook-says-app... Also, notice that FB has done everything possible to gather information. Frankly, the NSA should just hire FB to do their work - it'b be faster and cheaper. Locking stuff down is hard. Doing it with multiple app stores will be impossible.
- sprafa 6y ago
  Isn’t PRISM basically using FB to do NSA work for them anyhow?
  - MR4D 6y ago
    Probably. Which was kinda my point - monitoring these rule breakers is hard.
    - immigrantsheep 6y ago
      And yet even after these things surfaced, nothing happened to the apps. Not everyone is equal.

martin8412 6y ago

I can only say I agree. I don't want more actors in the appstore market. I prefer quality over quantity.

enragedcacti 6y ago

...just don't use other app stores? Honest question, what do you lose by other people having the option?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
y7 6y ago
Because it leads to fragmentation. If developers have a choice of app stores, then users have to install ALL app stores if they want access to the entire market. This happened with streaming services as well: when Netflix was the only prominent one, only that subscription was enough. Now you also need Amazon, Hulu, etc.
- enragedcacti 6y ago
  If enough users agree with the parent comment that the app store is the best way get software then companies can weigh that user base against the 30% cut. Why should we force the users who don't like the App Store (or want apps that are incompatible with Apple's business model) to suffer on behalf of the users who don't?
  - ghostwriter 6y ago
    Nobody forces anyone into interaction with Apple ecosystem. People want to get onto App Store because they know they can benefit from it, financially big. And they subscribe voluntarily by the most fair means of it, by trading their money in exchange for the service under the rules that are mentioned prior the transaction takes place.
    - enragedcacti 6y ago
      By omitting details and framing each transaction as an isolated incident, you can make almost any monopoly or anti-consumer practice sound like just another business. Nobody forces anyone into interaction with Carnegie Steel. People want to use their steel because they know they can benefit from it, financially big. And they purchase it voluntarily by the most fair means of it, by trading their money in exchange for the steel under the rules that are mentioned prior the transaction takes place.

emsy 6y ago

You’re certainly not speaking for me and the many many devs that were harmed by Apple’s arbitrary application of rules. I also want so see people get wild and creative with apps. This doesn’t happen if you’re pre-censoring because you’re unsure if Apple would allow the app.

danShumway 6y ago

To be charitable: If the only people arguing about this lawsuit fell into either my camp or yours (ericmay's), I'd be a lot less irritated about this whole debate. I fundamentally disagree with you, but at least your arguments are relatively internally consistent. At least I understand where you're coming from. Give me a hundred people saying, "I like Apple being a dictator", just get rid of all the awful arguments about how, "there is no right side, and both of them are in the wrong." I couldn't care less whether or not people like Epic in particular. If you spend all of your time getting picky about who can and can't advocate for you, then eventually people will stop advocating for you altogether.

archagon 6y ago

For someone who has a massive Steam library, why wouldn't they want their Steam games to be available on iOS as well? (For those games that have ports.) I think there's a huge number of people in this boat.

rndgermandude 6y ago

>Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. Then don't install them? But I fail to see why you (or Apple) should be in a position to tell other users what they can install or not. >You want another option of App Stores because you want don't want to pay for the user base that Apple created and maintains. lolwat Honestly, I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. >You want to embed permanent location tracking in your apps, abuse user data, and not have to have your crappy practices out in the open when Apple shows the "nutrition scorecard" for your app. This is a typical "think of the children" argument once more. Nobody forces you to install that tracking shit. You're free to not use apps that do that - e.g. get your apps from the Apple App Store, or make your own app if there is no such tracking free alternative. But those Apple App Store approved apps you seem to be so fond of... they do track you already ;) >That's not what I want on my iPhone. Then don't put use it on your iPhone. >Yes that's exactly what I want. I want Apple to have complete control over the ecosystem. They've earned my complete trust. Good for you. Nobody is stopping you from exercising your trust and only use Apple and/or Apple-approved software in the future.

ghostwriter 6y ago
> But I fail to see why you (or Apple) should be in a position to tell other users what they can install or not. Because it's their platform, they created it, they grew it, they paid for its development out of their pocket, and they offered it as a unique market proposition that satisfies millions of users around the world. Apple doesn't force anyone into their platform, everyone involved are there voluntarily and solely because they know that it's beneficial for them to be on the platform.
LexGray 6y ago
I think a good option here would be for Apple to sell jailbroken developer phones for say an additional 30% cut up front and a nice DEV brand on the back for bragging rights. The additional fee hurdle would discourage those who just want a cheap way to get paid software and whatever additional expenses from helping with malware.

kelnos 6y ago

I don't own an iPhone in large part because I cannot install an alternative app store or install non-Apple approved apps. > Right, and the rest of us don't want that, and I also don't want games or apps that don't adhere to Apple's rules. Why do you care? If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't. The games available on Apple's store will continue to adhere to Apple's rules, and if you want that curation, you still get it. > They've earned my complete trust. This blind devotion to the Apple Way is baffling, especially considering how Apple-approved apps are not free of the tracking and user-data abuse you (correctly!) rail against.

jdminhbg 6y ago
> Why do you care? If you don't want to install a third-party app store, then don't. The games available on Apple's store will continue to adhere to Apple's rules, and if you want that curation, you still get it. Apple users care because if non-App Store distribution methods are banned, then developers are forced to go through Apple's process to get access to them. You can see complaints around this thread about how bad Epic's store on PC is. On iOS, they're forced to use Apple's purchase UI, subscription rules, privacy rules, etc.
- enragedcacti 6y ago
  If it provides that much consumer value then people shouldn't be worried about a little bit of competition. This feels more to me like a certain subset of users siding with Apple because their values happen to align with Apple's avenue for generating profit from the App Store. If Apple's goal was protecting their consumers, they could easily roll back the contested parts of their policy while protecting consumers AND still make a profit.
- kelnos 6y ago
  If Apple doesn't want competition, maybe they should address the reasons why people want that competition. If the App Store's terms and review policies were attractive to these kinds of developers, they wouldn't push so hard to have their own store. And if the only policies that these developers had to legitimately complain about were the ones that protect users, they'd be laughed out of town. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

dwild 6y ago

And how does having multiple app store would stop anything that you want? It wouldn't stop the Apple app store from existing with theses restrictions, they would still be there. You would still have access to the apps that Apple consider fine for their stores, without installing another app store. Win-win for everyone. > You want to embed permanent location tracking in your apps, abuse user data, and not have to have your crappy practices out in the open when Apple shows the "nutrition scorecard" for your app. How about stopping theses practice on the OS side of the device? Apple already do that there... I agree completely that it's crazy when an OS allow stuff that we don't want to allow, it's not curation that solve this, it's actually a secure system that does.

Slartie 6y ago

> Right, and the rest of us don't want that Please stop speaking for others. I would certainly like to have the ability to install other sources for apps. Since I am part of "the rest of us", for any kind of "us" that came to my mind while reading your posting ("iPhone users" or "Apple customers" or "HN readers"), your statement is patently false. > That's not what I want on my iPhone. Then don't install additional stores. I also don't want most of the apps currently available in Apple's app store on my iPhone, but I'm far from demanding that they are to be banned and other people who want to use them should be prevented from doing so. Also it's too sad you conspicuously skipped over danShumways question regarding the "bigger moat" - because I indeed would be interested in what moat you are imagining there, too.

ericmay 6y ago
> Please stop speaking for others. Same to you and the GP here. And last I checked there aren’t a lot of customers really complaining about the App Store. It’s just big companies who, although they could have done this years ago, are now going against Apple’s customer protection because it degrades their crappy business practices. > Then don’t install additional stores Then buy a different phone? I want any app that doesn’t follow Apple’s guidelines to be completely banned. Goodbye Epic. Nice knowing you. Don’t care. I don’t want apps spying on me, engaging in shitty business practices, scamming customers, and doing bad things. Apple is working to protect my privacy and safety. They’re not perfect, but that’s why I buy an iPhone and I want it to stay that way. If I wanted another App Store I’d buy a different phone, like you should.
- enragedcacti 6y ago
  Are you incapable of self control to the point of not being able to stop yourself from using a different app store? Or is it that you know Apple's cut is onerous enough that given competition, most the apps would leave? It feels like you want other users to suffer on the basis that your values happen to align with Apple's avenue for generating profit. If Apple were in it for your privacy and safety they could drop their cut substantially and kneecap most of the controversy.
- 6y ago

strictnein 6y ago

No corporation should ever have your "complete trust", because they do not value you above themselves.

colinmhayes 6y ago

This take is absolutely insane. Competition has never hurt consumers. There is no downside to more app stores, only huge upsides in the reduced fees.