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Yeah to be honest while I think Apple clearly has monopoly power here that should be reined in, I also get the feeling that Epic will have a pretty weak argumen

Yeah to be honest while I think Apple clearly has monopoly power here that should be reined in, I also get the feeling that Epic will have a pretty weak argument for why they purposely violated the Terms of Service and then expect to continue using the SDK tools.

elicash 6y ago
I'll still be on Epic's side if they didn't violate the terms AFTER Apple removed their app. But if they, for example, tried to upload another app or something then Apple would then of course need to remove their access. (I'm not REALLY on ANYBODY's side here. But I think App Store rules are unjust and bad for users and that Apple will lose this fight despite being able to take any losses financially for as long as they wish.)
hrktb 6y ago
If you argue a company doesn’t allow behavior X, doing it and getting punished is the best course of action to prove the point. To your point, they have a whole lawsuit filling explaining why they think X should be allowed.
- mrgordon 6y ago
  According to the law, the best course of action is not to break the law to prove you don't like the law. While the Terms of Service are not the law, you agree to follow them when signing up and the terms didn't change after Epic signed up. Practically, you may be correct that this is the most expedient way to try to fix the problem but you can get burned as Epic has in the short term with a sharp drop in revenue as Apple & Google have both booted them and may refuse to work with them in the future.
  - hrktb 6y ago
    I'd draw a parralel with civil desobediance. I'm aware this case is between two behemoth, the point to them is not civil rights but future revenue and there's a lot to say about each side's behavior, but on the principle it's the same I think. The important point here I think is they are bearing the consequences of their act (not that they have a choice either), so it's not like it's unfair to Apple or Google. On a scale of "breaking the rules", it's closer to sitting on a forbidden bus bench than looting stores.
mcintyre1994 6y ago
I’m unconvinced that there should be repercussions beyond the App Store tbh. While Apple get to set the App Store rules fine you get taken off there, but then what’s the actual criteria for this all out permanent ban? Just not reinstating your app in a compliant form? What if you decide the deal sucks and don’t want to go back on their store? Then you just get permanently banned forever? Presumably it doesn’t work like this if you try to upload an app that breaks the rules and they catch it at app review - sorry, you broke rule xyz and if you don’t have a compliant app up within 30 days we’re permanently banning you from developing for any of our platforms. I don’t get why breaking App Store rules matters beyond the App Store at all.
- mrgordon 6y ago
  Its a matter of intent. If I've caught you trying to subvert the rules, then I have no reason to think you won't abuse them again. It is reasonable someone wouldn't want a frequent abuser to be able to submit new apps via their SDK. In the extreme case, I could submit a new app every minute just to waste their reviewers' time.

elicash 6y ago

I'll still be on Epic's side if they didn't violate the terms AFTER Apple removed their app. But if they, for example, tried to upload another app or something then Apple would then of course need to remove their access. (I'm not REALLY on ANYBODY's side here. But I think App Store rules are unjust and bad for users and that Apple will lose this fight despite being able to take any losses financially for as long as they wish.)

hrktb 6y ago

If you argue a company doesn’t allow behavior X, doing it and getting punished is the best course of action to prove the point. To your point, they have a whole lawsuit filling explaining why they think X should be allowed.

mrgordon 6y ago
According to the law, the best course of action is not to break the law to prove you don't like the law. While the Terms of Service are not the law, you agree to follow them when signing up and the terms didn't change after Epic signed up. Practically, you may be correct that this is the most expedient way to try to fix the problem but you can get burned as Epic has in the short term with a sharp drop in revenue as Apple & Google have both booted them and may refuse to work with them in the future.
- hrktb 6y ago
  I'd draw a parralel with civil desobediance. I'm aware this case is between two behemoth, the point to them is not civil rights but future revenue and there's a lot to say about each side's behavior, but on the principle it's the same I think. The important point here I think is they are bearing the consequences of their act (not that they have a choice either), so it's not like it's unfair to Apple or Google. On a scale of "breaking the rules", it's closer to sitting on a forbidden bus bench than looting stores.

mcintyre1994 6y ago

I’m unconvinced that there should be repercussions beyond the App Store tbh. While Apple get to set the App Store rules fine you get taken off there, but then what’s the actual criteria for this all out permanent ban? Just not reinstating your app in a compliant form? What if you decide the deal sucks and don’t want to go back on their store? Then you just get permanently banned forever? Presumably it doesn’t work like this if you try to upload an app that breaks the rules and they catch it at app review - sorry, you broke rule xyz and if you don’t have a compliant app up within 30 days we’re permanently banning you from developing for any of our platforms. I don’t get why breaking App Store rules matters beyond the App Store at all.

mrgordon 6y ago
Its a matter of intent. If I've caught you trying to subvert the rules, then I have no reason to think you won't abuse them again. It is reasonable someone wouldn't want a frequent abuser to be able to submit new apps via their SDK. In the extreme case, I could submit a new app every minute just to waste their reviewers' time.