5 ms·

Some customers buy into the Apple ecosystem because of its walled garden. Not despite of it.

by noncoml 6y ago

baby 6y ago
Really? Who?
- braythwayt 6y ago
  Not my sole reason, but since you asked, here I am. I give my children iPhones. I like having certain family controls over what they use, and further controls over what appears in the app store to begin with. I like having a single vendor for all my software purchases, that I can trust to issue refunds and discontinue subscriptions promptly. I spend all day thinking about computers, I don't want to also be my own IT professional and security team, especially for a slab of glass I hold in my hand. I accept that I have to do some IT and security thinking about my iOS devices, but the more the walled garden provides, the less is on me. I understand that with this "safety" comes a loss of "liberty," but I find that an acceptable tradeoff for consumer hardware in my personal life. I don't automatically assume that the right tradeoffs for me are also the right tradeoffs for everyone else. If someone wants to sideload apps and/or develop their own custom apps without some kind of special developer status, I have no problem suggesting they buy something else. I accept that I am not the typical HN reader.
  - baby 6y ago
    Should a parent really get their children iPhones?
    - braythwayt 6y ago
      If you are a parent, you decide for yourself. I question the validity of presuming this question has a correct answer for all parents under all circumstances.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - reaperducer 6y ago
      Should a parent really get their children iPhones? Not your kids. Not your business.
    - spanhandler 6y ago
      Maybe, maybe not, but by like 5th grade most of them seem to have one regardless. Many younger kids have one. By 7th it's practically all of them (a smartphone, that is, though yeah, often an iPhone) Our school assigns every kid an iPad. In Kindergarten. Good idea? I kinda don't think so, though it's been useful this year, of course. But it happens. Increasingly parents have trouble letting kids wander the neighborhood on their own without a tracker/communication-device on them, and a smartphone's really good at serving that role. There are other options but kids want to have their smartphone on them, and as soon as you want them to be able to do one other smartphone-thing any other option starts to look kinda pointless. (just relating observations of parenting in the wild, not my own parenting approach)
  - tuscen 6y ago
    Why this can’t be a part of parental control function where you can restrict certain function on devices you control?
  - bradlys 6y ago
    I will add to this: I wish my parents had stuck with iPhones. The amount of IT support that I had to do after they switched went up quite a bit. It's been a few years so they've adjusted (and I've just ignored their complaints and told them to fix it themselves) but who knows what garbage they've installed on their phones! They're not tech savvy. It would be quite nice if they had stuck with iPhones. I remember they got Samsung tablets and when I had looked at them to see if I would like to buy one... I saw they were completely full of - essentially - spyware and malware.
  - Nullabillity 6y ago
    > I give my children iPhones. I like having certain family controls over what they use, and further controls over what appears in the app store to begin with. Okay.. then their opinion is what's relevant here, not yours. > I like having a single vendor for all my software purchases, that I can trust to issue refunds and discontinue subscriptions promptly. Weren't they in hot water recently for forcing developers to use their deceptive subscription trial system?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - philwelch 6y ago
    To your point, and more to the dispute with Epic: I’m sure you also want to make sure your kids aren’t spending all your money on dumb in-app purchases. Having a controlled mechanism for that provides an actual value to you, and letting companies circumvent it would make things harder for you. Are the fees for that mechanism fair? That’s a business negotiation.
  - kitsunesoba 6y ago
    > …that I can trust to issue refunds and discontinue subscriptions promptly. This is a big one. I'm significantly more likely to subscribe to a service/app if I'm able to do so through iTunes, because it means the app developer can't directly reach into my wallet. If I hit "Cancel Subscription" in the iTunes subscription panel, it's canceled, no ifs, ands, or buts, and no hidden unsubscribe links or intentionally obtuse unsubscription processes to have to contend with. This is a huge thing for consumers to give up for the sake of developer freedom. If Apple begins to allow third party payment systems, developers should be required to connect said payment systems to Apple-provided standardized subscription control APIs so strong user control is maintained.
- badsectoracula 6y ago
  People who do not know better and people who make money out of people who do not know better.
  - noncoml 6y ago
    People who don’t want to exposed their non-technical family to the Wild West of Android.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      That's just the tip of the iceberg https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/mar/11/my-kids-spent-600-on-their-ipads-without-my-knowledge https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/mar/11/my-kids-spent-...
      - badsectoracula 6y ago
        Uh, that is about iPad, so Apple's walled garden didn't help. And kids shouldn't be able to buy things with their parents' cards, which is something completely unrelated to a platform being open or not.
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        The problem is that once you go down the streets dressed as a Batman to do justice, you'll find a villian dressed as a penguin Apple store is not more secure because it's a walled garden, people will always find other ways to scam other people Apple could just make sideload possible declining responsibility It doesn't sound very hard to me, for a company like Apple which employ some of the best talents in the World
        badsectoracula 6y ago
        Right but i do not think it is really about Apple having responsibility - it is about Apple being in control. For example, see how Apple is in total control on when iOS devices are obsolete by requiring some minimum version. You can't keep your device usable and useful by installing a program that supports it from another source, you can only install it from Apple and Apple's requirements limit the iOS versions you can target.
- spanhandler 6y ago
  Raises hand. I don't wanna have to worry about stupid computer shit when I'm just trying to use my iPad or iPhone as a tool to accomplish something else. Drawing, playing music, reading, writing, edutainment for the kids, very occasionally a game. Maybe the odd SSH session. If I decide I want some software to help me with any of those things I just want it to be in the App Store, and I just want it to use the App Store payment system. I don't want competing app stores because that might mean that sometimes what I want isn't on the Apple one, following Apple's rules about spying on my and otherwise behaving as badly as desktop software and webapps do these days. It means I have to search more than one store. Now we're veering into the stupid computer shit I don't want to have to worry about, again.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    That doesn't address the issue: those who would can't. You don't lose anything if you don't want to. You should have to keep doing what you already do.
    - spanhandler 6y ago
      > That doesn't address the issue: those who would can't. Then buy any other general computing product on the market. I'd be more sympathetic to this concern if Android didn't exist. Meanwhile it does, and the users who picked Apple did it because they don't care about this, they don't care very much about this, or because they actively want the App Store restrictions and the ecosystem that they create. > You don't lose anything if you don't want to. I very well might, though. Changes to rules change how actors behave in a system. The way software developers and publishers behave on iOS could change in ways that I don't like if they're able to viably distribute software outside the App Store. That might be OK, except forcing developers and publishers to follow the App Store rules is part of the appeal of the devices. If that'd been a major sticking point for me, I could have bought Android.
      - romanoderoma 6y ago
        > Then buy any other general computing product on the market That's not how free market works. And it's a very silly objection. Android is a licensed platform.from Google, but Google does not make the majority of devices. Apple manufacturs the devices, but they sell them to me locked in the ecosystem they profit from. Imagine being unable of refueling because your car does not work with standard oil pumps and you had to go to Apple licensed gas station whom Apple charges 30% to. They would be prohibited from selling the car. > I very well might, though. But you wouldn't if you don't change your behaviour. > Changes to rules change how actors behave in a system That's exactly what many want from Apple. Change the rules. Nobody is asking Apple to relax their safety rules inside their walled garden. If they can't allow sideloading, they're not as good as I thought. > I could have bought Android. I don't buy it. If Apple sold Android powered iPhones you would still buy an iPhone, you're are buying the brand, not the product.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  On every discussion about this topic on HN, there has been at least one but typically many more commenters saying they love the walled garden and they would pay a premium for it. They trust Apple so they are OK with paying them 30% more instead of paying the app developers directly. They would never dare recommend Windows or Linux or Android to their parents but they would happily recommend them to get iPhones and iPads because they would not end up with a virus-ridden device. Personally, this is so different from the way I think that I find it utterly surprising, much more so from the tech savvy audience of HN. But apparently preferring walled gardens and being willing to pay extra to obtain one and even more every time you buy something on it is not an uncommon opinion to have.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    Personally, this is so different from the way I think that I find it utterly surprising Seven billion people on the planet. It shouldn't be surprising to learn that not everyone thinks the way that you do. I wonder if it's an age thing. When you're young and have more time than money, tinkering with the technical hassles of your phone is worth it to save a buck or two. When you're older and have more money than time, you happily pay $399 for an iPhone if it means getting hours or days of your life to spend on other things.
    - spanhandler 6y ago
      Age was it, in part, for me. I used to do lots of hardware and OS tinkering. Now the last goddamn thing I want to do is troubleshoot graphical glitches in x-windows, or try to get my audio to handle changing outputs correctly, or cross my fingers while "dist-upgrade" runs, or fix scaling and font rendering in GTK apps, or whatever, when I'm just trying to do something else. At some point I became acutely aware of every time I was doing something with a computer that was simply fucking with the computer, and not actually getting anything that I wanted or needed to get done, except to the extent that making my computer be not-broken is required for those things. Around that time I was exposed to macOS and iOS and finally had an actual choice to (mostly) not have to do that when I don't want to, and if I decide I would like to tinker then I can use... any other option on the market. I'd probably be screwing around with trying to run NetBSD on Android phones and turn them into mobile computers I can plug monitors and keyboards into and embedding RPis and Arduinos in all kinds of crap around the house, if I were 16 again. At the age I am now, though, you'd literally have to pay me to even think about doing any of that. Even when I screw around with getting allegedly set-it-and-forget-it RPi media projects (think: kodi, lakka) working I usually end up regretting it. I do know how to work with those sorts of things. I also very much don't want to any more, but do still want computer-things doing stuff for me with few or no hassles. Luckily these days you can pay to get that, in some categories at least. Largely from Apple, if you want them to last a while—I do wish they had actual competition in that sense. More options that don't spy (much) and Just Work (mostly), please.
- darkwizard42 6y ago
  Me for one. I don't want to deal with several different terms of service, different ways of payment, lack of clarity on if an app is trustworthy or not. Apple is simple. I trust Apple to protect me and honestly based on the stories I read about Google's Play Store I feel more confident in Apple to do the right thing for consumers in the long run. Their incentive is aligned to my needs (good safe hardware that protects me from making potentially poor choices -- even as someone who is in the "tech" world)
  - farisjarrah 6y ago
    Is Apple's app store actually protecting you from anything, or do you just get the illusion that its protecting you? Although the situation has gotten much better the past couple years, its still not uncommon to find apps on the app store that charge like 10$ a month for some wallpapers or something of a similar nature. Furthermore, every few months there are new news articles coming out about how ""XYZ"" app is collecting ""ABC"" data from iPhone users(like apps scraping clipboard data, or apps trying to access the microphone or camera when the user thinks there should be no recording going on). The claim that the iOS is actually protecting users seems dubious at best. Apple tends to exert control over the app store, but it always seems to be in response to users finding out that some app is doing something evil rather then Apple protecting users up front to begin with.
    - MrScruff 6y ago
      It's providing me with a unified experience, which is a benefit. You might not value it but others do.
    - darkwizard42 6y ago
      iOS is protecting me WAY more than Google Play store. I also read plenty about Apple being TOO strict on developers more than I read them being loose. (which sorry to the developers out there and definitely an area that apple can and should improve on) Your point that some bad actors get through doesn't invalidate that Apple seems to be doing the best job of keeping the app store secure and consumer friendly.
    - 6y ago
- layoutIfNeeded 6y ago
  Me. I buy Apple products not because it's a walled garden per se, but because it's Apple's walled garden. Apple has been the only vendor to provide me with a consistently top-quality user experience, so I trust them to make decisions that benefit me. I don't have the same trust relationship with other software and hardware vendors, so their walled gardens I would protest against.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  Me. My life is too full of other things to want to worry about the latest bit of malware floating around on Android, or whether my phone will stop getting updates a year or two after I own it. To me, a phone should work for me, not the other way around. I'd rather spend my time living my life than fussing with the technicalities of my phone. I'm willing to pay extra for it. I also went with iPhone because I trust Apple to vet its apps better than any other vendor. When someone else does as good a job, I'll head over there. But for now, iPhone is where it's at.
- asadlionpk 6y ago
  Me. It limits the attack surface and all the problems that come with openness, very visible in the Android world. The problem is that giving a choice to users is risky and not acceptable at scale because people are not smart, they do dumb things all the time; like pasting untrusted scripts into devtools console and getting hacked. Or replying to mail scams. So I am happy I can hand an iPad to my parent and not be there to secure all activities they do online.
  - braythwayt 6y ago
    We used to joke about the fact that no matter what you do to educate users, if told that to see a video of funny dancing pigs[1] all they have to do is give the installer root privileges... Users will give the installer root privileges. History bore this out over and over and over again. — [1]: See also: Crapware-laden browser toolbars, Java runtimes, Adobe Reader, Windows crapware, Smart TVs, ...
- hombre_fatal 6y ago
  Me. I like the sandboxing. I like Apple Pay (especially for subscriptions). I like the new random-gen email addresses system. I like that apps have to use these things and can't just opt-out, because I may have to use the app for work or something. It's not the only thing I care about, but it's not all just strict downside.
- bhupy 6y ago
  Me, without a doubt. I'm too old and busy to worry about configuring my phone or making sure that it's safe / clean. I also buy it for my parents for the same reason.
- justwalt 6y ago
  To be fair, this is a somewhat common sentiment that I’ve seen on HN. Similar is the “non tech oriented parent” point, where you don’t have to worry about your parents phone getting a virus.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Me also. I don't want to spend another second of my life dealing with malware.
- barefoot 6y ago
  Me. For some background, I’m a longtime hardware and (more frequently) software developer. I also do quite a bit of ML consulting. I was gifted a MacBook Air many years ago. I was an avid Ubuntu (and, to a much lesser extent, Windows) user and developer at the time so I didn’t know what to make of it. I certainly didn’t expect to be blown away and switch to all Apple devices. Eight years later and I’m solidly in the Apple ecosystem. I have an open mind about switching but I love the reliability and consistency of the user experience. I can count on the core apps that I frequently reach for to just work. And if they don’t work there’s almost always an obvious, low-time, solution to fix them. I still do a great deal of development in Windows, but it’s exclusively in a Parallels VM on a MacBook and I’ve long since abandoned my desktop for development. The Apple ecosystem has built up enough trust with me that I also use it when flying (Foreflight on an iPad). You couldn’t pay me to switch to an android tablet as an alternative for that use case. My largest complaint is python development is not great on OS X out of the box. But that’s easy enough to work around.
bluedevil2k 6y ago
The "walled garden" isn't really the issue most at stake here, it's the in-app purchases. To me, it's hard to argue against the benefits of having a one-stop-shop safe-and-secure place to download apps on your phone which contains all your personal information. However, to me, it's hard to argue that Apple should keep getting money from you once you've established a loyal customer base and they are giving you money. And as a not-so-crazy take on this issue, why isn't Apple insisting on taking a cut of, say, the check I'm depositing into Chase and just uploaded a photograph of it. It's revenue, it's in the app ... why isn't Apple taking a piece of that?
- philwelch 6y ago
  The only people paying the cost of that are companies like Epic, and if their games aren’t available for iOS that will affect the popularity of the iPhone. Maybe Apple backs down on the in-app purchases, or maybe they don’t and that decision drives away developers followed by users. Until then, we’re just seeing them negotiate with each other via PR.
- fastball 6y ago
  Indeed, that is exactly the argument made by the article.
- Traster 6y ago
  If Apps are delivering new content and functionality in response to users directly giving them money then in what way is the walled garden walled? Just download the "door" app - now you're downloading arbitrary apps from a 3rd party. What happens when you download steam and suddenly people are downloading totally arbitrary code. Oh and that arbitrary code is hijacking whatsapp and sending itself to all your contacts?

Some customers buy into the Apple ecosystem because of its walled garden. Not despite of it.

baby 6y ago

Really? Who?

braythwayt 6y ago
Not my sole reason, but since you asked, here I am. I give my children iPhones. I like having certain family controls over what they use, and further controls over what appears in the app store to begin with. I like having a single vendor for all my software purchases, that I can trust to issue refunds and discontinue subscriptions promptly. I spend all day thinking about computers, I don't want to also be my own IT professional and security team, especially for a slab of glass I hold in my hand. I accept that I have to do some IT and security thinking about my iOS devices, but the more the walled garden provides, the less is on me. I understand that with this "safety" comes a loss of "liberty," but I find that an acceptable tradeoff for consumer hardware in my personal life. I don't automatically assume that the right tradeoffs for me are also the right tradeoffs for everyone else. If someone wants to sideload apps and/or develop their own custom apps without some kind of special developer status, I have no problem suggesting they buy something else. I accept that I am not the typical HN reader.
- baby 6y ago
  Should a parent really get their children iPhones?
  - braythwayt 6y ago
    If you are a parent, you decide for yourself. I question the validity of presuming this question has a correct answer for all parents under all circumstances.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    Should a parent really get their children iPhones? Not your kids. Not your business.
  - spanhandler 6y ago
    Maybe, maybe not, but by like 5th grade most of them seem to have one regardless. Many younger kids have one. By 7th it's practically all of them (a smartphone, that is, though yeah, often an iPhone) Our school assigns every kid an iPad. In Kindergarten. Good idea? I kinda don't think so, though it's been useful this year, of course. But it happens. Increasingly parents have trouble letting kids wander the neighborhood on their own without a tracker/communication-device on them, and a smartphone's really good at serving that role. There are other options but kids want to have their smartphone on them, and as soon as you want them to be able to do one other smartphone-thing any other option starts to look kinda pointless. (just relating observations of parenting in the wild, not my own parenting approach)
- tuscen 6y ago
  Why this can’t be a part of parental control function where you can restrict certain function on devices you control?
- bradlys 6y ago
  I will add to this: I wish my parents had stuck with iPhones. The amount of IT support that I had to do after they switched went up quite a bit. It's been a few years so they've adjusted (and I've just ignored their complaints and told them to fix it themselves) but who knows what garbage they've installed on their phones! They're not tech savvy. It would be quite nice if they had stuck with iPhones. I remember they got Samsung tablets and when I had looked at them to see if I would like to buy one... I saw they were completely full of - essentially - spyware and malware.
- Nullabillity 6y ago
  > I give my children iPhones. I like having certain family controls over what they use, and further controls over what appears in the app store to begin with. Okay.. then their opinion is what's relevant here, not yours. > I like having a single vendor for all my software purchases, that I can trust to issue refunds and discontinue subscriptions promptly. Weren't they in hot water recently for forcing developers to use their deceptive subscription trial system?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- philwelch 6y ago
  To your point, and more to the dispute with Epic: I’m sure you also want to make sure your kids aren’t spending all your money on dumb in-app purchases. Having a controlled mechanism for that provides an actual value to you, and letting companies circumvent it would make things harder for you. Are the fees for that mechanism fair? That’s a business negotiation.
- kitsunesoba 6y ago
  > …that I can trust to issue refunds and discontinue subscriptions promptly. This is a big one. I'm significantly more likely to subscribe to a service/app if I'm able to do so through iTunes, because it means the app developer can't directly reach into my wallet. If I hit "Cancel Subscription" in the iTunes subscription panel, it's canceled, no ifs, ands, or buts, and no hidden unsubscribe links or intentionally obtuse unsubscription processes to have to contend with. This is a huge thing for consumers to give up for the sake of developer freedom. If Apple begins to allow third party payment systems, developers should be required to connect said payment systems to Apple-provided standardized subscription control APIs so strong user control is maintained.
badsectoracula 6y ago
People who do not know better and people who make money out of people who do not know better.
- noncoml 6y ago
  People who don’t want to exposed their non-technical family to the Wild West of Android.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    That's just the tip of the iceberg https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/mar/11/my-kids-spent-600-on-their-ipads-without-my-knowledge https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/mar/11/my-kids-spent-...
    - badsectoracula 6y ago
      Uh, that is about iPad, so Apple's walled garden didn't help. And kids shouldn't be able to buy things with their parents' cards, which is something completely unrelated to a platform being open or not.
      - romanoderoma 6y ago
        The problem is that once you go down the streets dressed as a Batman to do justice, you'll find a villian dressed as a penguin Apple store is not more secure because it's a walled garden, people will always find other ways to scam other people Apple could just make sideload possible declining responsibility It doesn't sound very hard to me, for a company like Apple which employ some of the best talents in the World
        badsectoracula 6y ago
        Right but i do not think it is really about Apple having responsibility - it is about Apple being in control. For example, see how Apple is in total control on when iOS devices are obsolete by requiring some minimum version. You can't keep your device usable and useful by installing a program that supports it from another source, you can only install it from Apple and Apple's requirements limit the iOS versions you can target.
spanhandler 6y ago
Raises hand. I don't wanna have to worry about stupid computer shit when I'm just trying to use my iPad or iPhone as a tool to accomplish something else. Drawing, playing music, reading, writing, edutainment for the kids, very occasionally a game. Maybe the odd SSH session. If I decide I want some software to help me with any of those things I just want it to be in the App Store, and I just want it to use the App Store payment system. I don't want competing app stores because that might mean that sometimes what I want isn't on the Apple one, following Apple's rules about spying on my and otherwise behaving as badly as desktop software and webapps do these days. It means I have to search more than one store. Now we're veering into the stupid computer shit I don't want to have to worry about, again.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  That doesn't address the issue: those who would can't. You don't lose anything if you don't want to. You should have to keep doing what you already do.
  - spanhandler 6y ago
    > That doesn't address the issue: those who would can't. Then buy any other general computing product on the market. I'd be more sympathetic to this concern if Android didn't exist. Meanwhile it does, and the users who picked Apple did it because they don't care about this, they don't care very much about this, or because they actively want the App Store restrictions and the ecosystem that they create. > You don't lose anything if you don't want to. I very well might, though. Changes to rules change how actors behave in a system. The way software developers and publishers behave on iOS could change in ways that I don't like if they're able to viably distribute software outside the App Store. That might be OK, except forcing developers and publishers to follow the App Store rules is part of the appeal of the devices. If that'd been a major sticking point for me, I could have bought Android.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      > Then buy any other general computing product on the market That's not how free market works. And it's a very silly objection. Android is a licensed platform.from Google, but Google does not make the majority of devices. Apple manufacturs the devices, but they sell them to me locked in the ecosystem they profit from. Imagine being unable of refueling because your car does not work with standard oil pumps and you had to go to Apple licensed gas station whom Apple charges 30% to. They would be prohibited from selling the car. > I very well might, though. But you wouldn't if you don't change your behaviour. > Changes to rules change how actors behave in a system That's exactly what many want from Apple. Change the rules. Nobody is asking Apple to relax their safety rules inside their walled garden. If they can't allow sideloading, they're not as good as I thought. > I could have bought Android. I don't buy it. If Apple sold Android powered iPhones you would still buy an iPhone, you're are buying the brand, not the product.
smnrchrds 6y ago
On every discussion about this topic on HN, there has been at least one but typically many more commenters saying they love the walled garden and they would pay a premium for it. They trust Apple so they are OK with paying them 30% more instead of paying the app developers directly. They would never dare recommend Windows or Linux or Android to their parents but they would happily recommend them to get iPhones and iPads because they would not end up with a virus-ridden device. Personally, this is so different from the way I think that I find it utterly surprising, much more so from the tech savvy audience of HN. But apparently preferring walled gardens and being willing to pay extra to obtain one and even more every time you buy something on it is not an uncommon opinion to have.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  Personally, this is so different from the way I think that I find it utterly surprising Seven billion people on the planet. It shouldn't be surprising to learn that not everyone thinks the way that you do. I wonder if it's an age thing. When you're young and have more time than money, tinkering with the technical hassles of your phone is worth it to save a buck or two. When you're older and have more money than time, you happily pay $399 for an iPhone if it means getting hours or days of your life to spend on other things.
  - spanhandler 6y ago
    Age was it, in part, for me. I used to do lots of hardware and OS tinkering. Now the last goddamn thing I want to do is troubleshoot graphical glitches in x-windows, or try to get my audio to handle changing outputs correctly, or cross my fingers while "dist-upgrade" runs, or fix scaling and font rendering in GTK apps, or whatever, when I'm just trying to do something else. At some point I became acutely aware of every time I was doing something with a computer that was simply fucking with the computer, and not actually getting anything that I wanted or needed to get done, except to the extent that making my computer be not-broken is required for those things. Around that time I was exposed to macOS and iOS and finally had an actual choice to (mostly) not have to do that when I don't want to, and if I decide I would like to tinker then I can use... any other option on the market. I'd probably be screwing around with trying to run NetBSD on Android phones and turn them into mobile computers I can plug monitors and keyboards into and embedding RPis and Arduinos in all kinds of crap around the house, if I were 16 again. At the age I am now, though, you'd literally have to pay me to even think about doing any of that. Even when I screw around with getting allegedly set-it-and-forget-it RPi media projects (think: kodi, lakka) working I usually end up regretting it. I do know how to work with those sorts of things. I also very much don't want to any more, but do still want computer-things doing stuff for me with few or no hassles. Luckily these days you can pay to get that, in some categories at least. Largely from Apple, if you want them to last a while—I do wish they had actual competition in that sense. More options that don't spy (much) and Just Work (mostly), please.
darkwizard42 6y ago
Me for one. I don't want to deal with several different terms of service, different ways of payment, lack of clarity on if an app is trustworthy or not. Apple is simple. I trust Apple to protect me and honestly based on the stories I read about Google's Play Store I feel more confident in Apple to do the right thing for consumers in the long run. Their incentive is aligned to my needs (good safe hardware that protects me from making potentially poor choices -- even as someone who is in the "tech" world)
- farisjarrah 6y ago
  Is Apple's app store actually protecting you from anything, or do you just get the illusion that its protecting you? Although the situation has gotten much better the past couple years, its still not uncommon to find apps on the app store that charge like 10$ a month for some wallpapers or something of a similar nature. Furthermore, every few months there are new news articles coming out about how ""XYZ"" app is collecting ""ABC"" data from iPhone users(like apps scraping clipboard data, or apps trying to access the microphone or camera when the user thinks there should be no recording going on). The claim that the iOS is actually protecting users seems dubious at best. Apple tends to exert control over the app store, but it always seems to be in response to users finding out that some app is doing something evil rather then Apple protecting users up front to begin with.
  - MrScruff 6y ago
    It's providing me with a unified experience, which is a benefit. You might not value it but others do.
  - darkwizard42 6y ago
    iOS is protecting me WAY more than Google Play store. I also read plenty about Apple being TOO strict on developers more than I read them being loose. (which sorry to the developers out there and definitely an area that apple can and should improve on) Your point that some bad actors get through doesn't invalidate that Apple seems to be doing the best job of keeping the app store secure and consumer friendly.
  - 6y ago
layoutIfNeeded 6y ago
Me. I buy Apple products not because it's a walled garden per se, but because it's Apple's walled garden. Apple has been the only vendor to provide me with a consistently top-quality user experience, so I trust them to make decisions that benefit me. I don't have the same trust relationship with other software and hardware vendors, so their walled gardens I would protest against.
reaperducer 6y ago
Me. My life is too full of other things to want to worry about the latest bit of malware floating around on Android, or whether my phone will stop getting updates a year or two after I own it. To me, a phone should work for me, not the other way around. I'd rather spend my time living my life than fussing with the technicalities of my phone. I'm willing to pay extra for it. I also went with iPhone because I trust Apple to vet its apps better than any other vendor. When someone else does as good a job, I'll head over there. But for now, iPhone is where it's at.
asadlionpk 6y ago
Me. It limits the attack surface and all the problems that come with openness, very visible in the Android world. The problem is that giving a choice to users is risky and not acceptable at scale because people are not smart, they do dumb things all the time; like pasting untrusted scripts into devtools console and getting hacked. Or replying to mail scams. So I am happy I can hand an iPad to my parent and not be there to secure all activities they do online.
- braythwayt 6y ago
  We used to joke about the fact that no matter what you do to educate users, if told that to see a video of funny dancing pigs[1] all they have to do is give the installer root privileges... Users will give the installer root privileges. History bore this out over and over and over again. — [1]: See also: Crapware-laden browser toolbars, Java runtimes, Adobe Reader, Windows crapware, Smart TVs, ...
hombre_fatal 6y ago
Me. I like the sandboxing. I like Apple Pay (especially for subscriptions). I like the new random-gen email addresses system. I like that apps have to use these things and can't just opt-out, because I may have to use the app for work or something. It's not the only thing I care about, but it's not all just strict downside.
bhupy 6y ago
Me, without a doubt. I'm too old and busy to worry about configuring my phone or making sure that it's safe / clean. I also buy it for my parents for the same reason.
justwalt 6y ago
To be fair, this is a somewhat common sentiment that I’ve seen on HN. Similar is the “non tech oriented parent” point, where you don’t have to worry about your parents phone getting a virus.
lotsofpulp 6y ago
Me also. I don't want to spend another second of my life dealing with malware.
barefoot 6y ago
Me. For some background, I’m a longtime hardware and (more frequently) software developer. I also do quite a bit of ML consulting. I was gifted a MacBook Air many years ago. I was an avid Ubuntu (and, to a much lesser extent, Windows) user and developer at the time so I didn’t know what to make of it. I certainly didn’t expect to be blown away and switch to all Apple devices. Eight years later and I’m solidly in the Apple ecosystem. I have an open mind about switching but I love the reliability and consistency of the user experience. I can count on the core apps that I frequently reach for to just work. And if they don’t work there’s almost always an obvious, low-time, solution to fix them. I still do a great deal of development in Windows, but it’s exclusively in a Parallels VM on a MacBook and I’ve long since abandoned my desktop for development. The Apple ecosystem has built up enough trust with me that I also use it when flying (Foreflight on an iPad). You couldn’t pay me to switch to an android tablet as an alternative for that use case. My largest complaint is python development is not great on OS X out of the box. But that’s easy enough to work around.

bluedevil2k 6y ago

The "walled garden" isn't really the issue most at stake here, it's the in-app purchases. To me, it's hard to argue against the benefits of having a one-stop-shop safe-and-secure place to download apps on your phone which contains all your personal information. However, to me, it's hard to argue that Apple should keep getting money from you once you've established a loyal customer base and they are giving you money. And as a not-so-crazy take on this issue, why isn't Apple insisting on taking a cut of, say, the check I'm depositing into Chase and just uploaded a photograph of it. It's revenue, it's in the app ... why isn't Apple taking a piece of that?

philwelch 6y ago
The only people paying the cost of that are companies like Epic, and if their games aren’t available for iOS that will affect the popularity of the iPhone. Maybe Apple backs down on the in-app purchases, or maybe they don’t and that decision drives away developers followed by users. Until then, we’re just seeing them negotiate with each other via PR.
fastball 6y ago
Indeed, that is exactly the argument made by the article.
Traster 6y ago
If Apps are delivering new content and functionality in response to users directly giving them money then in what way is the walled garden walled? Just download the "door" app - now you're downloading arbitrary apps from a 3rd party. What happens when you download steam and suddenly people are downloading totally arbitrary code. Oh and that arbitrary code is hijacking whatsapp and sending itself to all your contacts?