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> It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. That's a very broad statement given that ther

> It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. That's a very broad statement given that there are many different types of meditations with different aims, religious/non-religious, with varying degrees of scientific evidence. What I can say is, that mindfulness-based interventions, where meditation usually represents the formal "training" aspect, have a significant and growing evidence-base. I agree there is no panacea, however in my opinion the risk/reward ratio of mindfulness meditation is astonishingly positive!

kumarvvr 6y ago
> there are many different types of meditations I am really curious about the origins of these "types". Who actually came up with these things? The concept of meditation has its origins in Hindu scriptures. However, now, it seems to have become a fad, with charlatans and marketers overwhelmingly using it to scam people. I see the same with the so called "yoga". But I have an open mind. There might be actual research that develops the concept of meditation. Would really love to see actual evidence. Like papers, books, etc.
- mkolodny 6y ago
  Siddhartha Gautama, the founder of Buddhism, is said to have practiced mindfulness meditation (vipassana) in the 5-4th century BCE. Though I haven't heard him referred to as the person who invented it. There is lots of research on the meditation's effectiveness [0]. That research includes "47 trials in 3,515 participants suggests that mindfulness meditation programs show moderate evidence of improving anxiety and depression". While I started meditating to reduce my anxiety (and it has), the goal of mindfulness meditation isn't reducing anxiety - it's awareness. Some people who start meditating, including myself, might start becoming more aware of their pre-existing anxiety. The good news is, once you become aware of the source of your anxiety, you can do something about it. [0] https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/meditation-in-depth https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/meditation-in-depth
- TimTheTinker 6y ago
  > The concept of meditation has its origins in Hindu scriptures. That's overloading the word meditation unnecessarily. There are decidedly non-Hindu forms of meditation that people around the world practice. One example is Christian meditation as described in the Bible, which takes an antithetic form to Hindu meditation: the goal is to "meditate" on specific doctrines or scriptures from the Bible. The idea is that there is a definite "content" upon which one meditates: the practitioner fills the mind instead of attempting to empty it or focus attention on the self. A common illustration is that of an animal chewing the cud; and (iirc) the Hebrew word for "meditate" comes from the term for cows chewing the cud.
zepto 6y ago
I know it can seem like a middlebrow dismissal to ask for supporting evidence, but in this case I think it’s important. You’ve dismissed the parents view (and import of the linked article) as overly broad, and you have asserted the existence of an evidence base to support this. Is there any summary of this evidence that you think is compelling?
- Pyramus 6y ago
  > Is there any summary of this evidence that you think is compelling? The meta-analyses in [1] are a good starting point. Note that in particular in a clinical setting, the intervention usually comprise more than just the meditation aspects, e.g. psycho-education, a group setting, or some form of body movement. You can find further evidence if you pick a specific intervention, e.g. Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) [2], which is considered the ancestor of modern mindfulness-based interventions. However, you might find it more compelling to learn about the mechanism rather than effectiveness. In that case an interesting starting point are the studies that have been done on Buddhist monks as "extreme points" in the set of meditators, e.g. see the references in [3]. Regarding the original article, I find the title a bit clickbaity (X can worsen depression and anxiety is true for almost all X, in particular doing nothing can worsen depression and anxiety!) and it is a bit concerning to me that the author does not differentiate between mindfulness and meditation. I couldn't find the paper from the article, my understanding is that 8 % of subjects reported adverse effects when doing a self-guided mindfulness meditation. I find 8 % quite low - 92 % did not report adverse effects? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Scientific_research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Scientific_researc... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness-based_stress_reduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness-based_stress_reduc... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthieu_Ricard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthieu_Ricard
joquarky 6y ago
Exactly. Meditation is just a tool with many uses. My current use is to create a quiet time for meta-cognition where I can organize my thoughts. Some people use it to try to let go of thoughts and be mentally still, others might use it as a chance to observe and focus on their senses. There are likely thousands of uses for meditation.
- aarpmcgee 6y ago
  Is meditation a means to an end? Is mental stillness or focusing on senses the result of meditation, or meditation itself?
  - samus 6y ago
    Meditation and other religious practices are always means to an end. Even if the end is actually unknown or shrouded in religious mystery. Thus, it is very important to be clear on what one actually wants to achieve with a particular practice. If you want to achieve something, but use the wrong means, at some point you'll realize that you're wasting time and effort. But if you don't know what you're after, you just walk farther and farther into the woods.
    - aarpmcgee 6y ago
      Would you be willing to give me some examples of such "ends"?
      - ekam 6y ago
        Not the person you replied to but there’s many different ends that people aim for via meditation- out of body experiences, building mental fortitude and discipline, expanded awareness, ego-death, overcoming trauma, etc

kumarvvr 6y ago

> there are many different types of meditations I am really curious about the origins of these "types". Who actually came up with these things? The concept of meditation has its origins in Hindu scriptures. However, now, it seems to have become a fad, with charlatans and marketers overwhelmingly using it to scam people. I see the same with the so called "yoga". But I have an open mind. There might be actual research that develops the concept of meditation. Would really love to see actual evidence. Like papers, books, etc.

mkolodny 6y ago
Siddhartha Gautama, the founder of Buddhism, is said to have practiced mindfulness meditation (vipassana) in the 5-4th century BCE. Though I haven't heard him referred to as the person who invented it. There is lots of research on the meditation's effectiveness [0]. That research includes "47 trials in 3,515 participants suggests that mindfulness meditation programs show moderate evidence of improving anxiety and depression". While I started meditating to reduce my anxiety (and it has), the goal of mindfulness meditation isn't reducing anxiety - it's awareness. Some people who start meditating, including myself, might start becoming more aware of their pre-existing anxiety. The good news is, once you become aware of the source of your anxiety, you can do something about it. [0] https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/meditation-in-depth https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/meditation-in-depth
TimTheTinker 6y ago
> The concept of meditation has its origins in Hindu scriptures. That's overloading the word meditation unnecessarily. There are decidedly non-Hindu forms of meditation that people around the world practice. One example is Christian meditation as described in the Bible, which takes an antithetic form to Hindu meditation: the goal is to "meditate" on specific doctrines or scriptures from the Bible. The idea is that there is a definite "content" upon which one meditates: the practitioner fills the mind instead of attempting to empty it or focus attention on the self. A common illustration is that of an animal chewing the cud; and (iirc) the Hebrew word for "meditate" comes from the term for cows chewing the cud.

zepto 6y ago

I know it can seem like a middlebrow dismissal to ask for supporting evidence, but in this case I think it’s important. You’ve dismissed the parents view (and import of the linked article) as overly broad, and you have asserted the existence of an evidence base to support this. Is there any summary of this evidence that you think is compelling?

Pyramus 6y ago
> Is there any summary of this evidence that you think is compelling? The meta-analyses in [1] are a good starting point. Note that in particular in a clinical setting, the intervention usually comprise more than just the meditation aspects, e.g. psycho-education, a group setting, or some form of body movement. You can find further evidence if you pick a specific intervention, e.g. Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) [2], which is considered the ancestor of modern mindfulness-based interventions. However, you might find it more compelling to learn about the mechanism rather than effectiveness. In that case an interesting starting point are the studies that have been done on Buddhist monks as "extreme points" in the set of meditators, e.g. see the references in [3]. Regarding the original article, I find the title a bit clickbaity (X can worsen depression and anxiety is true for almost all X, in particular doing nothing can worsen depression and anxiety!) and it is a bit concerning to me that the author does not differentiate between mindfulness and meditation. I couldn't find the paper from the article, my understanding is that 8 % of subjects reported adverse effects when doing a self-guided mindfulness meditation. I find 8 % quite low - 92 % did not report adverse effects? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Scientific_research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Scientific_researc... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness-based_stress_reduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness-based_stress_reduc... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthieu_Ricard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthieu_Ricard

joquarky 6y ago

Exactly. Meditation is just a tool with many uses. My current use is to create a quiet time for meta-cognition where I can organize my thoughts. Some people use it to try to let go of thoughts and be mentally still, others might use it as a chance to observe and focus on their senses. There are likely thousands of uses for meditation.

aarpmcgee 6y ago
Is meditation a means to an end? Is mental stillness or focusing on senses the result of meditation, or meditation itself?
- samus 6y ago
  Meditation and other religious practices are always means to an end. Even if the end is actually unknown or shrouded in religious mystery. Thus, it is very important to be clear on what one actually wants to achieve with a particular practice. If you want to achieve something, but use the wrong means, at some point you'll realize that you're wasting time and effort. But if you don't know what you're after, you just walk farther and farther into the woods.
  - aarpmcgee 6y ago
    Would you be willing to give me some examples of such "ends"?
    - ekam 6y ago
      Not the person you replied to but there’s many different ends that people aim for via meditation- out of body experiences, building mental fortitude and discipline, expanded awareness, ego-death, overcoming trauma, etc