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Reading through the comments I'd like to help clear up some of the misconceptions/confusion when it comes to the use of the terms meditation and mindfulness: T

Reading through the comments I'd like to help clear up some of the misconceptions/confusion when it comes to the use of the terms meditation and mindfulness: There are different meditation practices, mindfulness meditation is a special type of meditation (popular are Headspace, Calm, the work of Jon-Kabat et al. and many more). There are other types of meditation not aiming primarily at mindfulness, popular examples being Transcendental Meditation, visualisation type exercises, and many more. Mindfulness (in the scientific sense) refers to a state of mind characterised by various qualities (which are slightly different depending on the author), in short being in the present moment, or "not on auto-pilot". In a mindfulness course, meditation refers to the formal practice of catching your inner auto-pilot. This is usually complemented by applying mindfulness to every-day situations as well as some form of psycho-education. As a last comment, a 10-day Vipassana retreat is a completely different beast than doing a 10 minute guided mindfulness meditation every day, especially in terms of risks. As has been mentioned by variosu posters, there is a small, but real risk, that the retreat can trigger psychosis. In my understanding this is significantly different to the worsening of a pre-existing condition as described in the article.

lewispollard 6y ago
The free 10 day vipassana retreats are really quite dangerous IMO. They're often attended by complete beginners with no prior knowledge, since they're free and sort of marketed as a boot camp. The actual instruction is given on decades old tapes and videos. The "instructors" there are given explicit instruction not to advise anyone and just get them to listen to the tapes (which are very much steeped in religious Buddhism). So anyone who's struggling, in a weird mindstate, and unsure what's happening to them, and goes to a course leader for advice, won't get any advice other than to buckle down and listen to the tapes, and that often results in misapplying the technique, buckling down too hard, and not relaxing enough, which can cause the mind to... snap, I guess. Goenka's method is very inflexible and quite divergent from his lineage and peers. The method of insight meditation outlined by Ledi Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw, etc, is really quite simple, but there's a lot of misinformation, marketing, and fraudsters out there trying to convince people it's more than it is. > In a mindfulness course, meditation refers to the formal practice of catching your inner auto-pilot. This is usually complemented by applying mindfulness to every-day situations as well as some form of psycho-education. This is true and about as far as most people will get or want to get with it, and it really does have that benefit. You're right, these longer retreats are designed to essentially deconstruct your self-world boundary, and that isn't usually disclosed to people, there isn't much informed consent. The people who are seeking that usually know what they're getting into.
- spaetzleesser 6y ago
  When I did the 10 day I found it interesting that on the tapes Goenka told stories about how he interacted with people and gave them detailed advice during their sessions with him. But the retreats that are run in his name are totally cookie cutter and you get no individual advice other than basically just to keep going. When I lived in Maryland I attended classes with Tibetan teachers for a few years and they always pointed out that you need guidance through the tough spots or either your meditation effort is often wasted or even harmful. I guess us Westerners have a tendency to simplify everything to make it easier to sell. Sometimes it works but often it gets simplified too much as it happened with yoga (our "yoga" is basically just a milder form of aerobics without any depth) or now with mindfulness. There is some benefit but we completely miss the big point.
  - lewispollard 6y ago
    I have been told that the same thing happened to Goenka himself: he and his peers all got personalised advice, and so his particular body scanning method was what worked for him, while his peers were given other techniques. So the dogma of the Goenka method is based on the assumption that you have the same kind of character as Goenka himself.
    - dbtc 6y ago
      Daniel Ingram said this (dharmaoverground, mctb) in a recorded conversation on youtube a few months ago.
- h0l0cube 6y ago
  > The "instructors" there are given explicit instruction not to advise anyone and just get them to listen to the tapes (which are very much steeped in religious Buddhism). So anyone who's struggling, in a weird mindstate, and unsure what's happening to them, and goes to a course leader for advice, won't get any advice other than to buckle down and listen to the tapes, and that often results in misapplying the technique, buckling down too hard, and not relaxing enough, which can cause the mind to... snap, I guess. That depends on the 'Assistant Teacher' that is running the course. Maybe some are more willing than others to riff on Goenka's teachings, but from what I've seen most ATs have been willing to give their time to the students. I believe, there are actually other ordained 'Teachers' that tour at the Goenka schools, presumably with their own take on things. > that isn't usually disclosed to people, there isn't much informed consent. The people who are seeking that usually know what they're getting into. It's right their in the discourses. And though discouraged, students can leave at any time. Also, to be fair, they do ask each student probing questions about mental state, medications etc. before giving permission to enter the course. I stated that I took alcohol at most once a week, and this was enough concern for them to ask me to clarify. The last thing they need during a silent course is someone losing the plot, or going into withdrawls.

lewispollard 6y ago

The free 10 day vipassana retreats are really quite dangerous IMO. They're often attended by complete beginners with no prior knowledge, since they're free and sort of marketed as a boot camp. The actual instruction is given on decades old tapes and videos. The "instructors" there are given explicit instruction not to advise anyone and just get them to listen to the tapes (which are very much steeped in religious Buddhism). So anyone who's struggling, in a weird mindstate, and unsure what's happening to them, and goes to a course leader for advice, won't get any advice other than to buckle down and listen to the tapes, and that often results in misapplying the technique, buckling down too hard, and not relaxing enough, which can cause the mind to... snap, I guess. Goenka's method is very inflexible and quite divergent from his lineage and peers. The method of insight meditation outlined by Ledi Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw, etc, is really quite simple, but there's a lot of misinformation, marketing, and fraudsters out there trying to convince people it's more than it is. > In a mindfulness course, meditation refers to the formal practice of catching your inner auto-pilot. This is usually complemented by applying mindfulness to every-day situations as well as some form of psycho-education. This is true and about as far as most people will get or want to get with it, and it really does have that benefit. You're right, these longer retreats are designed to essentially deconstruct your self-world boundary, and that isn't usually disclosed to people, there isn't much informed consent. The people who are seeking that usually know what they're getting into.

spaetzleesser 6y ago
When I did the 10 day I found it interesting that on the tapes Goenka told stories about how he interacted with people and gave them detailed advice during their sessions with him. But the retreats that are run in his name are totally cookie cutter and you get no individual advice other than basically just to keep going. When I lived in Maryland I attended classes with Tibetan teachers for a few years and they always pointed out that you need guidance through the tough spots or either your meditation effort is often wasted or even harmful. I guess us Westerners have a tendency to simplify everything to make it easier to sell. Sometimes it works but often it gets simplified too much as it happened with yoga (our "yoga" is basically just a milder form of aerobics without any depth) or now with mindfulness. There is some benefit but we completely miss the big point.
- lewispollard 6y ago
  I have been told that the same thing happened to Goenka himself: he and his peers all got personalised advice, and so his particular body scanning method was what worked for him, while his peers were given other techniques. So the dogma of the Goenka method is based on the assumption that you have the same kind of character as Goenka himself.
  - dbtc 6y ago
    Daniel Ingram said this (dharmaoverground, mctb) in a recorded conversation on youtube a few months ago.
h0l0cube 6y ago
> The "instructors" there are given explicit instruction not to advise anyone and just get them to listen to the tapes (which are very much steeped in religious Buddhism). So anyone who's struggling, in a weird mindstate, and unsure what's happening to them, and goes to a course leader for advice, won't get any advice other than to buckle down and listen to the tapes, and that often results in misapplying the technique, buckling down too hard, and not relaxing enough, which can cause the mind to... snap, I guess. That depends on the 'Assistant Teacher' that is running the course. Maybe some are more willing than others to riff on Goenka's teachings, but from what I've seen most ATs have been willing to give their time to the students. I believe, there are actually other ordained 'Teachers' that tour at the Goenka schools, presumably with their own take on things. > that isn't usually disclosed to people, there isn't much informed consent. The people who are seeking that usually know what they're getting into. It's right their in the discourses. And though discouraged, students can leave at any time. Also, to be fair, they do ask each student probing questions about mental state, medications etc. before giving permission to enter the course. I stated that I took alcohol at most once a week, and this was enough concern for them to ask me to clarify. The last thing they need during a silent course is someone losing the plot, or going into withdrawls.