14 ms·

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it beca

by dTal 6y ago

It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. Yogis writing about the practice (before it became big business) freely admit all sorts of horrible-sounding mental side effects, but couch them in religious terms (and encourage the acolyte to push through until they achieve "enlightenment", which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being). This whole idea of it being a casual activity that's good for the soul, or that it can make you a more effective person (on this plane of existence) is 1) new and 2) only modestly supported by the science. It may hold some value, but it strikes me that there is more pro-meditation dogma than anti-. Scientists will hold an open mind, but "gurus" who charge money for fancy retreats will insist in its value without evidence. As a general rule, there are no panaceas - major changes in cognition can go either way. Be careful!

Mo3 6y ago
Can confirm from personal experience. Even a lot of vipassana meditation by itself can send you into psychotic states when you're not ready for all the insight yet. I came very close to psychosis once, experienced ego death, broke down mentally and had to spend 2 months in a depression ward. Cannot recommend. On the other hand, I met my now-wife in the depression ward, which in the "active" phase right before my admission I visualized and wished for quite often. I don't regret the 2-3 months of active ego dissolution phase, life has never been more beautiful and strangely peaceful and jarring at the same time. However, I did lose my job, my apartment and almost permanently lost my sanity as well, but now in hindsight it looks like it was all for the better. Nevertheless I don't think you should force something like this (like I very much did), the consequences to internal and external reality can be absolutely dramatic and I've preferred to live in peaceful ignorance since then... save for the short moments of.. remembering. Everything and nothing at once.
- searchableguy 6y ago
  I know few people who recommend mindfulness and meditation. It feels so pretentious and religion-like. Some people totally feel brainwashed. I had a friend who believed abuse would go away if you let it go and he was being abused for years. It's a common thing I found in my anecdotal group.
- JesseMeyer 6y ago
  Meditation is a blade with no hilt. I _accidentally_ fell into a vipassana state of mind after the first time trying a particular religious chant, seriously, from out of the pains of boredom as a 20 year old. At the time I lived nearby mountains, and after 'coming to', I saw them through the window. I cannot describe to you the overwhelming feeling of beauty and awe that crashed over me. It was as though this was the very first time I had ever seen mountains. I think the best description I can manage comes from 'Both Sides Now' by Joni Mitchell. 'I've looked at clouds from both sides now From up and down, and still somehow It's cloud illusions I recall I really don't know clouds at all' The experience was so disorienting. As if I was seeing the mountains for what they were directly through my senses and not mediated by my knowledge of what mountains were like, linguistically. It changed my entire life -- weeks later later I lost my job and fell into a 5 year extreme depression / anxiety spell in the attempt to reconcile my adolescent religious upbringing with the continued insight from that experience. Absolutely worthwhile, in hindsight, but it cost me near everything for it.
  - chromatin 6y ago
    Great comment, although Judy Collins’ recording (which came first) is far better than Joni Mitchell’s :)
    - JesseMeyer 6y ago
      Ha, thanks for the history lesson. :)
    - mordechai9000 6y ago
      I agree, it's far better than her studio version. But Joni Mitchell wrote the song. There's a video on YouTube of her performing it live, and it sounds a lot like the Judy Collins version, strangely enough.
  - charliemil4 6y ago
    How did you get out of the tailspin? It’s quite hard to “pull up” when there is nothing that feels grounded...
bobthechef 6y ago
"Meditation" isn't one tradition. I know that it has become associated with Eastern practices, but there are others like the Catholic/Christian tradition like the one described in "The Ways of Mental Prayer" by Lehodey".
corty 6y ago
Agreed. And before anyone interjects something like: "But medical professionals recommend meditation!" Meditation for medical purposes is almost always just a relaxation technique, e.g. autogenic training. The rest, beyond relaxation, is rarely recommended and usually frowned upon.
User23 6y ago
>It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. This is true for far Eastern styles of meditation, but it's not true for Christian meditation[1]. It aims to fill the mind rather than to empty it. In general Christian meditation is practiced more by the various Eastern Christian Churches, but there are Western traditions as well. I'm by no means an adept at the practice, but it has benefited me pragmatically and spiritually. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_meditation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_meditation
- lukaa 6y ago
  Yes, in Catholicism there are Jesuit spiritual exercises tailored both for priests and shorter for ordinary people, similar in orthodoxy. I think protestants lack that element and that's why meditation is so catchy in America.
  - adaisadais 6y ago
    Meditation is big in both Catholicism and Protestantism within the U.S. Meditation is catchy now due to some of the research behind it as well as society always looking for the next panacea. Modern / Hindu / Buddhist meditation (or what i have read and understood) typically centers around emptying one’s self or chanting a certain phrase to reach enlightenment. Christian meditation is about filling oneself with the Holy Spirit and denying our own selfish desires. When God gives his law for humanity in the book of Joshua he commands the people to “meditate on it day and night” because that is the way he intends them to know Him better.
    - thevardanian 6y ago
      The denial of the self or "selfish desires" is the common thread here.
- UncleOxidant 6y ago
  Isn't dying to self a central tenet of Christian teaching? " Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." John 12:24 "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. " Galatians 2:20 " For whoever strives to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. " Mark 8:35 Lots more.
brundolf 6y ago
Most of the anxiety/depression I've experienced revolves around the ego: expectations and pressures I place on myself, guilt/dissatisfaction when I don't feel like I'm meeting those expectations, etc. So a little bit of ego-death is just about the most peaceful thing imaginable for me. The idea that it's not all on my shoulders, that the world moves without me, that this isn't my story to ruin. I don't practice any kind of formalized meditation, really, but mindful quietness works pretty well. I guess it depends on where someone's difficulties are rooted.
- Chirael 6y ago
  I don’t meditate very regularly, but I try to think of it as a brief vacation from thinking. My mind is “thinking” all the time, from the moment I wake up until the moment I fall asleep, one thought after another without stopping. I’ve found that viewing meditation as a chance to take a break from that helps.
- thoughtleader31 6y ago
  It really does depend. There are people go by without ever questioning their wants, and never take responsibility for their own emotions in the most basic ways. They make every single one of their upsets someone else's responsibility and they come in hourly. They aren't that many and they're easy to recognize when you've been burned by one though. They would also do everyone a big favor by embracing this advice. On the other end are people who are driven to reduce their needs and scope as a response to pretty much anything. They'll be less of a hassle to others but advising them to reach harder for their familiar crutch is a disservice to them, and also their loved ones; neglect of others can be the the natural result of neglecting oneself. We don't do well with this advice.
- brundolf 6y ago
  Edit: I also want to point out, for those who don't know, that the broader concept of "ego" isn't the same as the colloquial usage, which tends to just mean "narcissism". The ego is the very idea of yourself as an individual, distinct from the world, with your own interests and goals and story. Some amount of this mindset is necessary for being a functioning person. But many people, especially in western cultures, have an over-inflated ego, even if it doesn't manifest as arrogance or blatant selfishness: we all care very much about our individual success compared to others in one way or another. Even insecurity and low self-esteem and identity crises come from the ego, because they're concerned with selfhood and the state of our selfhood. I think it often does us more harm than good.
thewarrior 6y ago
Modern day mindfulness is completely shorn of its spiritual foundations which are quite important. The Buddha wasn’t about meditating so you could be more productive at work. It’s about letting go of all such desires.
reify_null 6y ago
I think its important to note though, that its generally advised against to practice meditation outside of establishing a foundation in virtue/morality. Not that that is stopping anyone (past self included). I would argue that the religious texts are extremely important in grounding the meditation practice in that way. It's very easy to ascribe all kinds of super-natural ideas and beliefs to the stages of insight and the 'ego-death' at the end of those. In the end, its still you, with your perspective, your ideas, your wrongs and rights. Accepting that is the true jewel, in my eyes.
- elliekelly 6y ago
  > I would argue that the religious texts are extremely important in grounding the meditation practice in that way. It's very easy to ascribe all kinds of super-natural ideas and beliefs to the stages of insight Oh the irony.
  - reify_null 6y ago
    Why is it ironic? Specifically, I don't make any claims whatsoever, nor do I say that there is anything special about it. To me, its a categorization of experiences which tend to happen when you sit down and do some vipassana meditation. Nothing special about that, it's even reproducable for the most part. Like self-exploration.
Pyramus 6y ago
> It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. That's a very broad statement given that there are many different types of meditations with different aims, religious/non-religious, with varying degrees of scientific evidence. What I can say is, that mindfulness-based interventions, where meditation usually represents the formal "training" aspect, have a significant and growing evidence-base. I agree there is no panacea, however in my opinion the risk/reward ratio of mindfulness meditation is astonishingly positive!
- kumarvvr 6y ago
  > there are many different types of meditations I am really curious about the origins of these "types". Who actually came up with these things? The concept of meditation has its origins in Hindu scriptures. However, now, it seems to have become a fad, with charlatans and marketers overwhelmingly using it to scam people. I see the same with the so called "yoga". But I have an open mind. There might be actual research that develops the concept of meditation. Would really love to see actual evidence. Like papers, books, etc.
  - mkolodny 6y ago
    Siddhartha Gautama, the founder of Buddhism, is said to have practiced mindfulness meditation (vipassana) in the 5-4th century BCE. Though I haven't heard him referred to as the person who invented it. There is lots of research on the meditation's effectiveness [0]. That research includes "47 trials in 3,515 participants suggests that mindfulness meditation programs show moderate evidence of improving anxiety and depression". While I started meditating to reduce my anxiety (and it has), the goal of mindfulness meditation isn't reducing anxiety - it's awareness. Some people who start meditating, including myself, might start becoming more aware of their pre-existing anxiety. The good news is, once you become aware of the source of your anxiety, you can do something about it. [0] https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/meditation-in-depth https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/meditation-in-depth
  - TimTheTinker 6y ago
    > The concept of meditation has its origins in Hindu scriptures. That's overloading the word meditation unnecessarily. There are decidedly non-Hindu forms of meditation that people around the world practice. One example is Christian meditation as described in the Bible, which takes an antithetic form to Hindu meditation: the goal is to "meditate" on specific doctrines or scriptures from the Bible. The idea is that there is a definite "content" upon which one meditates: the practitioner fills the mind instead of attempting to empty it or focus attention on the self. A common illustration is that of an animal chewing the cud; and (iirc) the Hebrew word for "meditate" comes from the term for cows chewing the cud.
pmoriarty 6y ago
It's a mistake to think that "meditation" is only a religious practice or that it has only one aim. There are many forms of mediation, with many different aims, some religious, some not.
- baron_harkonnen 6y ago
  Can you point out some of the traditional practices of meditation that have no roots in religious traditions? I can't think of any truly secular traditions of the top of my head (or at least any that weren't invented in the last 50 years).
  - pmoriarty 6y ago
    Neither I nor the post I was replying to limited meditation to traditional practices. Nor were we talking about the roots of meditation. Yes, the roots of meditation are in religious practices (as, are, arguably, the roots of every human activity). That doesn't mean that contemporary meditation practices are necessarily religious. Many aren't. So if you're talking about the term "meditation" in general (as we were), to limit it to a religious practice is a mistake. It's much broader than that, even if it derives ultimately from something that once had a religious aspect.
    - zepto 6y ago
      I think this a fair point - meditation is not a single practice. It is a broad category. But it also means that we can’t claim that there is an evidence base for the positive effects of meditation, and more than we can for ‘medication’ or ‘food’. Meditation can be beneficial. Meditation can cause severe problems. Both are clearly true statements. The question is - what kinds of meditation are beneficial to whom? It’s worth noting that the Asian religious traditions had a history of being very selective about who was taught.
  - tgflynn 6y ago
    One might argue that stoicism would be one such case, though I don't think it developed techniques anywhere near as sophisticated as those of Eastern traditions. As for Buddhism, which is at the root of what most people mean by "meditation" today, calling it a religion is a bit problematic because it doesn't involve worshiping gods and, in theory at least, is not supposed to be primarily faith based. Both of those things: god worship and faith seem so fundamental to the western concept of religion that applying that term uncritically to Buddhism seems ill-founded.
baron_harkonnen 6y ago
On top of that nearly all ancient texts on meditation basically include a "do not try this at home" statement of sorts. A pretty common theme is that meditation should be practiced in close proximity to an accomplished master with their guidance. This is not dissimilar to the advice anyone who makes use of psychedelics will give. Of course people want quick and easy so "accomplished master" can easily be subbed out for "local yoga teacher" or even "NYT best selling book". Most people who claim benefits from meditation would likely reap even more benefits from just making sure they had an hour or half hour distraction free with time for their thoughts. Go for a walk alone, or find a quiet place and write in a journal, give your self some time before you fall as sleep to think just think to yourself.
- galaxyLogic 6y ago
  > On top of that nearly all ancient texts on meditation basically include a "do not try this at home" statement of sorts. I didn't know that. But I can see that being a "guru" or a "priest" is a profession, say like being a doctor is one. Now doctors are unlikely to say "go heal yourself". Rather they are likely to say "Come see me in 2 weeks and pay another $300 bucks". So I suspect if ancient texts say "Do not try this without a teacher" the reason may be that teachers need students.
  - muffinman26 6y ago
    Doctors want money, but that does't mean they're completely useless. I wouldn't want to perform surgery on myself. I recently read "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong, which covers the evolution of religion and various mystical traditions in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. It's a really interesting book and one of the points she brings up is that there are many historical examples of attempts at mystical experimentation that end in madness. The teacher is supposed to be a sort of life guard. Ultimately, the book made me even more skeptical of religion and meditation than I already was. Spiritual/meditative introspection seems like a risky and dangerous process.
    - cmrx64 6y ago
pdamoc 6y ago
I just finished going through the "De-Mystifying Mindfulness" course on Coursera and they do warn about the fact that "mindfulness" has become an industry and that the people who offer courses are often unqualified to teach them. MBSR and MBCT course with qualified teachers do have a very good track record and solid scientific backing. There are also some replicated studies of the synergy between mindfulness and psychedelics. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053811919302952 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10538...
throwaway423122 6y ago
Thank you for saying this! There are hundreds of meditation types and techniques, with many different effects, just like there are treatments in medicine. Meditation is being sold as casual activity, one-size-fits-all, often by people who received only few years of training, if not months. Please look for credited teachers with decades-long monastic experience. Ask them difficult questions.
- kanyethegreat 6y ago
  How do you find these people? What difficult questions are you asking in order to vet them?
  - throwaway423123 6y ago
    If you are doing 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes sessions every day you don't need teacher. It’s a simple mental exercise. You may feel no effect on your mind to caffeine kick kind of effect. But if you are doing more 30 minutes per day or specially more than one hour, you need some one guid you. Best teachers are people spending more time in meditation than you are. How to find these people are different from region to region. I’m Theravada Buddhist and we have some monks living in jungles or border of jungles, they are full time meditators, wake up early -> meditation -> breakfast -> meditation -> lunch -> meditation(no dinner) -> sleep. we usually go to these monks for instructions when doing series meditation.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  > Ask them difficult questions. How is a beginner qualified to ask difficult questions, or to assess the answers?
naruvimama 6y ago
In ancient India if a beggar attains a state of self realisation he becomes a yogi and would find the king visiting him/her and begging them to stay at the palace. A king in Europe attaining self realisation could have been executed by the church. The reason why yoga and meditation developed into an advanced form in India and not elsewhere is because self realisation has always been the ultimate goal for at least 5000 years and highly valued. When people say "grounded" they mean their surroundings and the people around them do not approve or support their transformation and they are frightened of leaving this familiar and comfortable routine. Ultimately machines and AI will take all the jobs, what we will have is our self, it is quite valuable for the lucky few who were able to transform yourself. The real problem is "trying to stay grounded", you do not have to. This is actually captured in the Indian tradition itself. One set of people who reach this transformation early in their life, and the vast majority of the people who go through the different phases in life. Children who play Students who learn A householder who runs a family, accumulates wealth, enjoys the pleasures of life of which pleasurable sex is also one to be pursued And retirement - even kings retire, denounce all worldly possessions in pursuit of moksha Of course there are different kinds of yoga which includes perfection of ones art, knowledge and dedication. Of course some additional challenges today include turning yoga into a boutique business (beer yoga, wine yoga), cultural appropriation and distortion (Christian yoga, Muslim yoga & Jewish yoga) and of course repackaging vipasana and other powerful techniques void of their roots and peddling them as trademarked products.
adrice727 6y ago
. . . which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being Where are you getting this from? I don't know of any traditions that would describe it in this way.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mtalantikite 6y ago
“which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being.” This is very important to point out and I think is actually the big trap when approaching meditative practices. I fell into this nihilism trap when I was starting meditation in college and I abandoned my practice almost completely for the next 10 or so years. It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self. The latter is an extreme view that leads to nihilism. At least in the Buddhist traditions I’m aware of, nihilism is a wrong view and the teachings are explicitly not nihilistic. Yet it’s exceptionally easy to get confused and fall into it if you’re just meditating without any real notion of what the teachings are. All the corporate “meditate for productivity” that has invaded the dialogue in the west I find at least misguided, and at the worst actually harmful. For anyone that is interested I’d suggest reading Thich Nhat Hanh’s translation and commentary on the heart sutra called “The Other Shore”. It clears up a lot of the teaching on emptiness and will help you not fall into the nihilism trap. (It’s also useful to note that the modern vipassana movement that is so popular in the west comes from a tradition that doesn’t emphasize the teachings on emptiness, even though they are in fact there in the Pali cannon.)
- Igelau 6y ago
  > It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self. I think part of the issue is that the words/concepts really don't translate into modern english well at all. Another example is how frequently the first of the Four Noble Truths is misrepresented as "Life is suffering". We don't have good ways of saying or explaining shunyata or dukkha that preserve the nuance of the concepts. Edit: Thich Nhat Hanh is always a solid recommendation. I'll have to find his commentary on the heart sutra.
  - mtalantikite 6y ago
    “I think part of the issue is that the words/concepts really don't translate into modern english well at all. Another example is how frequently the first of the Four Noble Truths is misrepresented as "Life is suffering".” Absolutely, translations are difficult and imprecise, having multiple meanings even in the original Sanskrit or Pāli. Even different lineages place concepts in different categories, like whether or not suffering is one of the three dharma seals or not. Vipassana as taught by the Theravada would say it is, whereas Mahayana and Vajrayana would sometimes say it’s not. No wonder new meditators get confused when they try to start a practice with all these modern apps and books that avoid teaching any of the lineages!
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
stared 6y ago
Ego-death might be blissful (everything is one) or an cosmic horror (everything is nothing). For descriptions of both states, I recommend "Realms of Unconsciousness" by Stanislav Grof. The latter can trigger an episode of depression. On a personal note, depression is not only about anxiety, or any beliefs about oneself. It may stem from understimulation. In this case, lowering input (as with meditation) is unlikely to help.
- Trasmatta 6y ago
  I've experienced the latter (cosmic horror from ego death) and it was the worst experience of my life. From drugs, though, not meditation. But it was pretty similar in character to the "dark night of the soul" that I've heard some people have experienced from meditation.
hairofthedawg 6y ago
Pray the Rosary daily. Talk about "ego death". ~JMJ
lm28469 6y ago
> It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death For a lot of people it's simply a 15 min break in the day, between work, kids, netflix, games or whatever, we never just sit down, do nothing, relax and listen to our inner selves I think that's why it became hype in the last few years, it's not so much that meditation will "heal your soul" or whatever pseudo science bs, it's more that it allows people to truly relax for a bit, unplug their brain of the incessant flow of information and distractions for a few minutes and reconnect with the baseline
jrochkind1 6y ago
There are various different strains of religous/spiritual/philosophical traditions that use meditation (of various kinds), in Hinduism and Buddhism (buddhism especially spread around the region in different variations), (maybe also in esoteric/mystical Abrahamic traditions too?), I'm not sure "ego death" or nihilism is seen as a goal or anticipated as an outcome by all of them. But I think it's probably true that none of them think meditation is a "simple stress-reliever". It is a powerful tool, and like all powerful tools, you can cut yourself with it, and should learn it with someone more expert who can guide you and keep you from hurting yourself. I suppose what's "good for the soul" depends on your theory of the soul and what's good for it. (Those who believe something resembling "ego death" is the goal believe that's "good for the soul"!) Seeing it as a tool to make you "more effective" (sounds like some kind of "productivity") definitely doesn't seem right, although probably is common in the de-spiritualized "self-improvement" U.S. "mindfulness" trend.
blablabla123 6y ago
I think all this is over-interpreting a really harmless practice. Meditation is the only activity that deterministically lifts my mood and decreases pondering. I seriously doubt that sitting still for half an hour trying not to think of anything could destroy my ego or anything. (Most people probably would stop before, that's why it's possible to do a bunch of short different meditations subsequently, so it doesn't get boring.) In fact there is scientific evidence that meditation and professional sports are the only activities that strengthen a person's will. I guess with sufficient motivation it's possible to find a study that claims anything. > anti-. Scientists will hold an open mind, but "gurus" who charge money for fancy retreats will insist in its value without evidence. I went for half a year every week to a free meditation meetup. The guy holding the meetup was the most relaxed person I have ever encountered in my life. Apparently he has has been travelling extensively to Japan and lived happily next to a Railway station. (Some people would go crazy living there with all the noises) For me he was the living proof this stuff actually works. No need for Gurus here, although it's surely possible to get scammed like with everything. Probably one should get suspicious when the meditation is expensive or at a remote place.
nu2ycombinator 6y ago
"meditation is a religious practice" this statement of your is enough to prove that you are motivated by theory that your book is the only one and everything else is false or satonic. Meditation will really help you, you should try.
hutzlibu 6y ago
"major changes in cognition can go either way. Be careful!" I read some spiritual books about LSD in my late teens and I almost believed the "holy spiritual drug changing consciousness" motive. But I was cautious and never took it and wanted to wait for the right time (it never came so far). One of the main reasons of waiting longer was, that I met some LSD gurus in real live - who where just retards. So I focused more on staying clear .. but a bit later I also met quite some "clear" people who never do or did drugs, but only meditated - and they were also so disconnected from reality, I found it even quite faszinating. Not illuminated. Just disconnected. So, when I meditate, my focus is to connect more to reality. And to find a balance between it all. Drugs can be tools. Various meditation technics can be tools. Nothing is the universal golden way. Find the right balance of technics, that works for you. That is my takeaway after quite some years exploring the area.
- Shorel 6y ago
  Very interesting. I am right now thinking about simracing as a way to meditate. You totally have to just focus on perception, no thinking, no ego, no self, nothing but the car and the road, and you repeat, and repeat, and repeat the track, over and over. It works your mind, without any harmful effects (that I know of).
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    You mean basically a repeative videogame? Well, I kind of do that from time to time. Play old videogames my mind can do it in autopilot mode. But I do not consider that too helpfull for myself. Sometimes it is. But on average I would say not. You still have the flickering screen, which I think is not god for my head for too long. And I have the screen already for work, so I rather go outside, when I can. One very simple technic to calm the mind while walking (or running or sitting) is use peripheric vision. Meaning the gaze is not focused, but wide. Seeing all at once. My theory is, that this uses more brain processing power, which leads to useless thoughts going silent. And breathing. And feeling. And smelling. And listening. (so a nice area is recommended)
    - 6y ago
crazygringo 6y ago
> meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death Only very specific types of meditation, at their advanced levels. The kind of meditation the vast majority of people do in the US, for example, has absolutely zero intention of achieving ego-death. Saying meditation is specifically aimed at causing ego-death makes as much as saying running is specifically aimed at qualifying for the Olympics.
- yters 6y ago
  intention doesn't have anything to do with mechanism
  - h0l0cube 6y ago
    It has much to do with the outcome. A surgeon can use a knife to save someone's life, a thug could use a knife to rob someone of their possessions.
  - Icedcool 6y ago
    With meditation it absolutely does. What you aim at in meditation guides your results.
jariel 6y ago
Mindfulness is not quite Meditation towards enlightenment. The idea is simple, and that is to remove one from the chaos of the world, to not be defined by it, and especially to 'be in the moment'. 'Quieting the mind and being present' in a tiny aspect of the more religious aspects. The 'big problem' is possibly that they are 'doing it wrong'. If you want to 'get people in the moment'? Play sports. Meditation is supposed to be about 'less thoughts' but usually it leads to more and more self contemplation - which is the opposite of what we want. Want to 'shut off' the contemplative mind -> Use another part of the brain! Does anyone know people who 'like sports' that generally get depressed? No, I would say the opposite: generally more gregarious, positive, and care free. You don't have 'thoughts' while you are chasing a ball, or managing around that rock you're about to hit. And we all need more exercise. I find running more meditative than any kind of meditation.
xenocyon 6y ago
I'm having a hard time parsing your comment - you're making a lot of aspersions and ending with the generic platitude "there are no panaceas". Can you frame your objection a little more concretely or specifically?
8bitsrule 6y ago
There are many, many forms of meditation, with many supposed goals. So to say that "meditation is..." is a reduction to absurdity. If you do something and you don't like the outcome, you stop. Driving a car may also lead to ego-death ... probably much more likely than from meditation. Yet we do it. There are certainly forms of meditation that are risky. There are also forms of Olympic sport that are risky. People disappear simply while taking a walk through the great outdoors. Are there many hucksters trying to cash in on 'yoga' trends? Sure! I understand from many very old and very-earnest- traditions that a -real- spiritual teacher would -never- charge for help. 'Cashing in' is, after all, pretty much the antithesis of 'uplifting'. Jung often pointed out that our waking egos are like planets orbiting a Self that's Sun-sized ... and much more in control than we realize. Most spiritual traditions emphasize that there are many stages of realization. (In the east, chakras symbolize this.) While our present culture places little value on compassion or wisdom, this time is unusual in that way. (We're born with both, but it's easy to get lost.) Many people over millennia have learned that if we make the effort - noone else can do it - there are definite rewards. One place to get an overview of this history (Western perspective) is in Huxley's 'Perennial Philosophy'.
- Shorel 6y ago
  > Driving a car may also lead to ego-death ... Do you mean driving as a form of meditation or about having a fatal accident on the road?
ayushchat 6y ago
This is a very interesting take, but I think it applies more to transcendental meditation, not for mindfulness meditation. I think mindful practices are good stress relievers in general, which include free journaling, slow long walks, and also simple thought mindfulness where we just observe our thoughts dispassionately. (The word "meditation" should be removed from this activity IMHO to avoid confusion)

by dTal 6y ago

Mo3 6y ago

Can confirm from personal experience. Even a lot of vipassana meditation by itself can send you into psychotic states when you're not ready for all the insight yet. I came very close to psychosis once, experienced ego death, broke down mentally and had to spend 2 months in a depression ward. Cannot recommend. On the other hand, I met my now-wife in the depression ward, which in the "active" phase right before my admission I visualized and wished for quite often. I don't regret the 2-3 months of active ego dissolution phase, life has never been more beautiful and strangely peaceful and jarring at the same time. However, I did lose my job, my apartment and almost permanently lost my sanity as well, but now in hindsight it looks like it was all for the better. Nevertheless I don't think you should force something like this (like I very much did), the consequences to internal and external reality can be absolutely dramatic and I've preferred to live in peaceful ignorance since then... save for the short moments of.. remembering. Everything and nothing at once.

searchableguy 6y ago
I know few people who recommend mindfulness and meditation. It feels so pretentious and religion-like. Some people totally feel brainwashed. I had a friend who believed abuse would go away if you let it go and he was being abused for years. It's a common thing I found in my anecdotal group.
JesseMeyer 6y ago
Meditation is a blade with no hilt. I _accidentally_ fell into a vipassana state of mind after the first time trying a particular religious chant, seriously, from out of the pains of boredom as a 20 year old. At the time I lived nearby mountains, and after 'coming to', I saw them through the window. I cannot describe to you the overwhelming feeling of beauty and awe that crashed over me. It was as though this was the very first time I had ever seen mountains. I think the best description I can manage comes from 'Both Sides Now' by Joni Mitchell. 'I've looked at clouds from both sides now From up and down, and still somehow It's cloud illusions I recall I really don't know clouds at all' The experience was so disorienting. As if I was seeing the mountains for what they were directly through my senses and not mediated by my knowledge of what mountains were like, linguistically. It changed my entire life -- weeks later later I lost my job and fell into a 5 year extreme depression / anxiety spell in the attempt to reconcile my adolescent religious upbringing with the continued insight from that experience. Absolutely worthwhile, in hindsight, but it cost me near everything for it.
- chromatin 6y ago
  Great comment, although Judy Collins’ recording (which came first) is far better than Joni Mitchell’s :)
  - JesseMeyer 6y ago
    Ha, thanks for the history lesson. :)
  - mordechai9000 6y ago
    I agree, it's far better than her studio version. But Joni Mitchell wrote the song. There's a video on YouTube of her performing it live, and it sounds a lot like the Judy Collins version, strangely enough.
- charliemil4 6y ago
  How did you get out of the tailspin? It’s quite hard to “pull up” when there is nothing that feels grounded...

bobthechef 6y ago

"Meditation" isn't one tradition. I know that it has become associated with Eastern practices, but there are others like the Catholic/Christian tradition like the one described in "The Ways of Mental Prayer" by Lehodey".

corty 6y ago

Agreed. And before anyone interjects something like: "But medical professionals recommend meditation!" Meditation for medical purposes is almost always just a relaxation technique, e.g. autogenic training. The rest, beyond relaxation, is rarely recommended and usually frowned upon.

User23 6y ago

>It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. This is true for far Eastern styles of meditation, but it's not true for Christian meditation[1]. It aims to fill the mind rather than to empty it. In general Christian meditation is practiced more by the various Eastern Christian Churches, but there are Western traditions as well. I'm by no means an adept at the practice, but it has benefited me pragmatically and spiritually. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_meditation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_meditation

lukaa 6y ago
Yes, in Catholicism there are Jesuit spiritual exercises tailored both for priests and shorter for ordinary people, similar in orthodoxy. I think protestants lack that element and that's why meditation is so catchy in America.
- adaisadais 6y ago
  Meditation is big in both Catholicism and Protestantism within the U.S. Meditation is catchy now due to some of the research behind it as well as society always looking for the next panacea. Modern / Hindu / Buddhist meditation (or what i have read and understood) typically centers around emptying one’s self or chanting a certain phrase to reach enlightenment. Christian meditation is about filling oneself with the Holy Spirit and denying our own selfish desires. When God gives his law for humanity in the book of Joshua he commands the people to “meditate on it day and night” because that is the way he intends them to know Him better.
  - thevardanian 6y ago
    The denial of the self or "selfish desires" is the common thread here.
UncleOxidant 6y ago
Isn't dying to self a central tenet of Christian teaching? " Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." John 12:24 "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. " Galatians 2:20 " For whoever strives to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. " Mark 8:35 Lots more.

brundolf 6y ago

Most of the anxiety/depression I've experienced revolves around the ego: expectations and pressures I place on myself, guilt/dissatisfaction when I don't feel like I'm meeting those expectations, etc. So a little bit of ego-death is just about the most peaceful thing imaginable for me. The idea that it's not all on my shoulders, that the world moves without me, that this isn't my story to ruin. I don't practice any kind of formalized meditation, really, but mindful quietness works pretty well. I guess it depends on where someone's difficulties are rooted.

Chirael 6y ago
I don’t meditate very regularly, but I try to think of it as a brief vacation from thinking. My mind is “thinking” all the time, from the moment I wake up until the moment I fall asleep, one thought after another without stopping. I’ve found that viewing meditation as a chance to take a break from that helps.
thoughtleader31 6y ago
It really does depend. There are people go by without ever questioning their wants, and never take responsibility for their own emotions in the most basic ways. They make every single one of their upsets someone else's responsibility and they come in hourly. They aren't that many and they're easy to recognize when you've been burned by one though. They would also do everyone a big favor by embracing this advice. On the other end are people who are driven to reduce their needs and scope as a response to pretty much anything. They'll be less of a hassle to others but advising them to reach harder for their familiar crutch is a disservice to them, and also their loved ones; neglect of others can be the the natural result of neglecting oneself. We don't do well with this advice.
brundolf 6y ago
Edit: I also want to point out, for those who don't know, that the broader concept of "ego" isn't the same as the colloquial usage, which tends to just mean "narcissism". The ego is the very idea of yourself as an individual, distinct from the world, with your own interests and goals and story. Some amount of this mindset is necessary for being a functioning person. But many people, especially in western cultures, have an over-inflated ego, even if it doesn't manifest as arrogance or blatant selfishness: we all care very much about our individual success compared to others in one way or another. Even insecurity and low self-esteem and identity crises come from the ego, because they're concerned with selfhood and the state of our selfhood. I think it often does us more harm than good.

thewarrior 6y ago

Modern day mindfulness is completely shorn of its spiritual foundations which are quite important. The Buddha wasn’t about meditating so you could be more productive at work. It’s about letting go of all such desires.

reify_null 6y ago

I think its important to note though, that its generally advised against to practice meditation outside of establishing a foundation in virtue/morality. Not that that is stopping anyone (past self included). I would argue that the religious texts are extremely important in grounding the meditation practice in that way. It's very easy to ascribe all kinds of super-natural ideas and beliefs to the stages of insight and the 'ego-death' at the end of those. In the end, its still you, with your perspective, your ideas, your wrongs and rights. Accepting that is the true jewel, in my eyes.

elliekelly 6y ago
> I would argue that the religious texts are extremely important in grounding the meditation practice in that way. It's very easy to ascribe all kinds of super-natural ideas and beliefs to the stages of insight Oh the irony.
- reify_null 6y ago
  Why is it ironic? Specifically, I don't make any claims whatsoever, nor do I say that there is anything special about it. To me, its a categorization of experiences which tend to happen when you sit down and do some vipassana meditation. Nothing special about that, it's even reproducable for the most part. Like self-exploration.

Pyramus 6y ago

> It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death. That's a very broad statement given that there are many different types of meditations with different aims, religious/non-religious, with varying degrees of scientific evidence. What I can say is, that mindfulness-based interventions, where meditation usually represents the formal "training" aspect, have a significant and growing evidence-base. I agree there is no panacea, however in my opinion the risk/reward ratio of mindfulness meditation is astonishingly positive!

kumarvvr 6y ago
> there are many different types of meditations I am really curious about the origins of these "types". Who actually came up with these things? The concept of meditation has its origins in Hindu scriptures. However, now, it seems to have become a fad, with charlatans and marketers overwhelmingly using it to scam people. I see the same with the so called "yoga". But I have an open mind. There might be actual research that develops the concept of meditation. Would really love to see actual evidence. Like papers, books, etc.
- mkolodny 6y ago
  Siddhartha Gautama, the founder of Buddhism, is said to have practiced mindfulness meditation (vipassana) in the 5-4th century BCE. Though I haven't heard him referred to as the person who invented it. There is lots of research on the meditation's effectiveness [0]. That research includes "47 trials in 3,515 participants suggests that mindfulness meditation programs show moderate evidence of improving anxiety and depression". While I started meditating to reduce my anxiety (and it has), the goal of mindfulness meditation isn't reducing anxiety - it's awareness. Some people who start meditating, including myself, might start becoming more aware of their pre-existing anxiety. The good news is, once you become aware of the source of your anxiety, you can do something about it. [0] https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/meditation-in-depth https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/meditation-in-depth
- TimTheTinker 6y ago
  > The concept of meditation has its origins in Hindu scriptures. That's overloading the word meditation unnecessarily. There are decidedly non-Hindu forms of meditation that people around the world practice. One example is Christian meditation as described in the Bible, which takes an antithetic form to Hindu meditation: the goal is to "meditate" on specific doctrines or scriptures from the Bible. The idea is that there is a definite "content" upon which one meditates: the practitioner fills the mind instead of attempting to empty it or focus attention on the self. A common illustration is that of an animal chewing the cud; and (iirc) the Hebrew word for "meditate" comes from the term for cows chewing the cud.

pmoriarty 6y ago

It's a mistake to think that "meditation" is only a religious practice or that it has only one aim. There are many forms of mediation, with many different aims, some religious, some not.

baron_harkonnen 6y ago
Can you point out some of the traditional practices of meditation that have no roots in religious traditions? I can't think of any truly secular traditions of the top of my head (or at least any that weren't invented in the last 50 years).
- pmoriarty 6y ago
  Neither I nor the post I was replying to limited meditation to traditional practices. Nor were we talking about the roots of meditation. Yes, the roots of meditation are in religious practices (as, are, arguably, the roots of every human activity). That doesn't mean that contemporary meditation practices are necessarily religious. Many aren't. So if you're talking about the term "meditation" in general (as we were), to limit it to a religious practice is a mistake. It's much broader than that, even if it derives ultimately from something that once had a religious aspect.
  - zepto 6y ago
    I think this a fair point - meditation is not a single practice. It is a broad category. But it also means that we can’t claim that there is an evidence base for the positive effects of meditation, and more than we can for ‘medication’ or ‘food’. Meditation can be beneficial. Meditation can cause severe problems. Both are clearly true statements. The question is - what kinds of meditation are beneficial to whom? It’s worth noting that the Asian religious traditions had a history of being very selective about who was taught.
- tgflynn 6y ago
  One might argue that stoicism would be one such case, though I don't think it developed techniques anywhere near as sophisticated as those of Eastern traditions. As for Buddhism, which is at the root of what most people mean by "meditation" today, calling it a religion is a bit problematic because it doesn't involve worshiping gods and, in theory at least, is not supposed to be primarily faith based. Both of those things: god worship and faith seem so fundamental to the western concept of religion that applying that term uncritically to Buddhism seems ill-founded.

baron_harkonnen 6y ago

On top of that nearly all ancient texts on meditation basically include a "do not try this at home" statement of sorts. A pretty common theme is that meditation should be practiced in close proximity to an accomplished master with their guidance. This is not dissimilar to the advice anyone who makes use of psychedelics will give. Of course people want quick and easy so "accomplished master" can easily be subbed out for "local yoga teacher" or even "NYT best selling book". Most people who claim benefits from meditation would likely reap even more benefits from just making sure they had an hour or half hour distraction free with time for their thoughts. Go for a walk alone, or find a quiet place and write in a journal, give your self some time before you fall as sleep to think just think to yourself.

galaxyLogic 6y ago
> On top of that nearly all ancient texts on meditation basically include a "do not try this at home" statement of sorts. I didn't know that. But I can see that being a "guru" or a "priest" is a profession, say like being a doctor is one. Now doctors are unlikely to say "go heal yourself". Rather they are likely to say "Come see me in 2 weeks and pay another $300 bucks". So I suspect if ancient texts say "Do not try this without a teacher" the reason may be that teachers need students.
- muffinman26 6y ago
  Doctors want money, but that does't mean they're completely useless. I wouldn't want to perform surgery on myself. I recently read "A History of God" by Karen Armstrong, which covers the evolution of religion and various mystical traditions in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. It's a really interesting book and one of the points she brings up is that there are many historical examples of attempts at mystical experimentation that end in madness. The teacher is supposed to be a sort of life guard. Ultimately, the book made me even more skeptical of religion and meditation than I already was. Spiritual/meditative introspection seems like a risky and dangerous process.
  - cmrx64 6y ago

pdamoc 6y ago

I just finished going through the "De-Mystifying Mindfulness" course on Coursera and they do warn about the fact that "mindfulness" has become an industry and that the people who offer courses are often unqualified to teach them. MBSR and MBCT course with qualified teachers do have a very good track record and solid scientific backing. There are also some replicated studies of the synergy between mindfulness and psychedelics. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053811919302952 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10538...

throwaway423122 6y ago

Thank you for saying this! There are hundreds of meditation types and techniques, with many different effects, just like there are treatments in medicine. Meditation is being sold as casual activity, one-size-fits-all, often by people who received only few years of training, if not months. Please look for credited teachers with decades-long monastic experience. Ask them difficult questions.

kanyethegreat 6y ago
How do you find these people? What difficult questions are you asking in order to vet them?
- throwaway423123 6y ago
  If you are doing 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes sessions every day you don't need teacher. It’s a simple mental exercise. You may feel no effect on your mind to caffeine kick kind of effect. But if you are doing more 30 minutes per day or specially more than one hour, you need some one guid you. Best teachers are people spending more time in meditation than you are. How to find these people are different from region to region. I’m Theravada Buddhist and we have some monks living in jungles or border of jungles, they are full time meditators, wake up early -> meditation -> breakfast -> meditation -> lunch -> meditation(no dinner) -> sleep. we usually go to these monks for instructions when doing series meditation.
MaxBarraclough 6y ago
> Ask them difficult questions. How is a beginner qualified to ask difficult questions, or to assess the answers?

naruvimama 6y ago

In ancient India if a beggar attains a state of self realisation he becomes a yogi and would find the king visiting him/her and begging them to stay at the palace. A king in Europe attaining self realisation could have been executed by the church. The reason why yoga and meditation developed into an advanced form in India and not elsewhere is because self realisation has always been the ultimate goal for at least 5000 years and highly valued. When people say "grounded" they mean their surroundings and the people around them do not approve or support their transformation and they are frightened of leaving this familiar and comfortable routine. Ultimately machines and AI will take all the jobs, what we will have is our self, it is quite valuable for the lucky few who were able to transform yourself. The real problem is "trying to stay grounded", you do not have to. This is actually captured in the Indian tradition itself. One set of people who reach this transformation early in their life, and the vast majority of the people who go through the different phases in life. Children who play Students who learn A householder who runs a family, accumulates wealth, enjoys the pleasures of life of which pleasurable sex is also one to be pursued And retirement - even kings retire, denounce all worldly possessions in pursuit of moksha Of course there are different kinds of yoga which includes perfection of ones art, knowledge and dedication. Of course some additional challenges today include turning yoga into a boutique business (beer yoga, wine yoga), cultural appropriation and distortion (Christian yoga, Muslim yoga & Jewish yoga) and of course repackaging vipasana and other powerful techniques void of their roots and peddling them as trademarked products.

adrice727 6y ago

. . . which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being Where are you getting this from? I don't know of any traditions that would describe it in this way.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

mtalantikite 6y ago

“which they describe as a profoundly nihilist state of being.” This is very important to point out and I think is actually the big trap when approaching meditative practices. I fell into this nihilism trap when I was starting meditation in college and I abandoned my practice almost completely for the next 10 or so years. It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self. The latter is an extreme view that leads to nihilism. At least in the Buddhist traditions I’m aware of, nihilism is a wrong view and the teachings are explicitly not nihilistic. Yet it’s exceptionally easy to get confused and fall into it if you’re just meditating without any real notion of what the teachings are. All the corporate “meditate for productivity” that has invaded the dialogue in the west I find at least misguided, and at the worst actually harmful. For anyone that is interested I’d suggest reading Thich Nhat Hanh’s translation and commentary on the heart sutra called “The Other Shore”. It clears up a lot of the teaching on emptiness and will help you not fall into the nihilism trap. (It’s also useful to note that the modern vipassana movement that is so popular in the west comes from a tradition that doesn’t emphasize the teachings on emptiness, even though they are in fact there in the Pali cannon.)

Igelau 6y ago
> It’s very easy to confuse the emptiness of self with the nonexistence of self. I think part of the issue is that the words/concepts really don't translate into modern english well at all. Another example is how frequently the first of the Four Noble Truths is misrepresented as "Life is suffering". We don't have good ways of saying or explaining shunyata or dukkha that preserve the nuance of the concepts. Edit: Thich Nhat Hanh is always a solid recommendation. I'll have to find his commentary on the heart sutra.
- mtalantikite 6y ago
  “I think part of the issue is that the words/concepts really don't translate into modern english well at all. Another example is how frequently the first of the Four Noble Truths is misrepresented as "Life is suffering".” Absolutely, translations are difficult and imprecise, having multiple meanings even in the original Sanskrit or Pāli. Even different lineages place concepts in different categories, like whether or not suffering is one of the three dharma seals or not. Vipassana as taught by the Theravada would say it is, whereas Mahayana and Vajrayana would sometimes say it’s not. No wonder new meditators get confused when they try to start a practice with all these modern apps and books that avoid teaching any of the lineages!

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

stared 6y ago

Ego-death might be blissful (everything is one) or an cosmic horror (everything is nothing). For descriptions of both states, I recommend "Realms of Unconsciousness" by Stanislav Grof. The latter can trigger an episode of depression. On a personal note, depression is not only about anxiety, or any beliefs about oneself. It may stem from understimulation. In this case, lowering input (as with meditation) is unlikely to help.

Trasmatta 6y ago
I've experienced the latter (cosmic horror from ego death) and it was the worst experience of my life. From drugs, though, not meditation. But it was pretty similar in character to the "dark night of the soul" that I've heard some people have experienced from meditation.

hairofthedawg 6y ago

Pray the Rosary daily. Talk about "ego death". ~JMJ

lm28469 6y ago

> It's important to bear in mind that meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death For a lot of people it's simply a 15 min break in the day, between work, kids, netflix, games or whatever, we never just sit down, do nothing, relax and listen to our inner selves I think that's why it became hype in the last few years, it's not so much that meditation will "heal your soul" or whatever pseudo science bs, it's more that it allows people to truly relax for a bit, unplug their brain of the incessant flow of information and distractions for a few minutes and reconnect with the baseline

jrochkind1 6y ago

There are various different strains of religous/spiritual/philosophical traditions that use meditation (of various kinds), in Hinduism and Buddhism (buddhism especially spread around the region in different variations), (maybe also in esoteric/mystical Abrahamic traditions too?), I'm not sure "ego death" or nihilism is seen as a goal or anticipated as an outcome by all of them. But I think it's probably true that none of them think meditation is a "simple stress-reliever". It is a powerful tool, and like all powerful tools, you can cut yourself with it, and should learn it with someone more expert who can guide you and keep you from hurting yourself. I suppose what's "good for the soul" depends on your theory of the soul and what's good for it. (Those who believe something resembling "ego death" is the goal believe that's "good for the soul"!) Seeing it as a tool to make you "more effective" (sounds like some kind of "productivity") definitely doesn't seem right, although probably is common in the de-spiritualized "self-improvement" U.S. "mindfulness" trend.

blablabla123 6y ago

I think all this is over-interpreting a really harmless practice. Meditation is the only activity that deterministically lifts my mood and decreases pondering. I seriously doubt that sitting still for half an hour trying not to think of anything could destroy my ego or anything. (Most people probably would stop before, that's why it's possible to do a bunch of short different meditations subsequently, so it doesn't get boring.) In fact there is scientific evidence that meditation and professional sports are the only activities that strengthen a person's will. I guess with sufficient motivation it's possible to find a study that claims anything. > anti-. Scientists will hold an open mind, but "gurus" who charge money for fancy retreats will insist in its value without evidence. I went for half a year every week to a free meditation meetup. The guy holding the meetup was the most relaxed person I have ever encountered in my life. Apparently he has has been travelling extensively to Japan and lived happily next to a Railway station. (Some people would go crazy living there with all the noises) For me he was the living proof this stuff actually works. No need for Gurus here, although it's surely possible to get scammed like with everything. Probably one should get suspicious when the meditation is expensive or at a remote place.

nu2ycombinator 6y ago

"meditation is a religious practice" this statement of your is enough to prove that you are motivated by theory that your book is the only one and everything else is false or satonic. Meditation will really help you, you should try.

hutzlibu 6y ago

"major changes in cognition can go either way. Be careful!" I read some spiritual books about LSD in my late teens and I almost believed the "holy spiritual drug changing consciousness" motive. But I was cautious and never took it and wanted to wait for the right time (it never came so far). One of the main reasons of waiting longer was, that I met some LSD gurus in real live - who where just retards. So I focused more on staying clear .. but a bit later I also met quite some "clear" people who never do or did drugs, but only meditated - and they were also so disconnected from reality, I found it even quite faszinating. Not illuminated. Just disconnected. So, when I meditate, my focus is to connect more to reality. And to find a balance between it all. Drugs can be tools. Various meditation technics can be tools. Nothing is the universal golden way. Find the right balance of technics, that works for you. That is my takeaway after quite some years exploring the area.

Shorel 6y ago
Very interesting. I am right now thinking about simracing as a way to meditate. You totally have to just focus on perception, no thinking, no ego, no self, nothing but the car and the road, and you repeat, and repeat, and repeat the track, over and over. It works your mind, without any harmful effects (that I know of).
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  You mean basically a repeative videogame? Well, I kind of do that from time to time. Play old videogames my mind can do it in autopilot mode. But I do not consider that too helpfull for myself. Sometimes it is. But on average I would say not. You still have the flickering screen, which I think is not god for my head for too long. And I have the screen already for work, so I rather go outside, when I can. One very simple technic to calm the mind while walking (or running or sitting) is use peripheric vision. Meaning the gaze is not focused, but wide. Seeing all at once. My theory is, that this uses more brain processing power, which leads to useless thoughts going silent. And breathing. And feeling. And smelling. And listening. (so a nice area is recommended)
  - 6y ago

crazygringo 6y ago

> meditation is a religious practice specifically aimed at causing ego-death Only very specific types of meditation, at their advanced levels. The kind of meditation the vast majority of people do in the US, for example, has absolutely zero intention of achieving ego-death. Saying meditation is specifically aimed at causing ego-death makes as much as saying running is specifically aimed at qualifying for the Olympics.

yters 6y ago
intention doesn't have anything to do with mechanism
- h0l0cube 6y ago
  It has much to do with the outcome. A surgeon can use a knife to save someone's life, a thug could use a knife to rob someone of their possessions.
- Icedcool 6y ago
  With meditation it absolutely does. What you aim at in meditation guides your results.

jariel 6y ago

Mindfulness is not quite Meditation towards enlightenment. The idea is simple, and that is to remove one from the chaos of the world, to not be defined by it, and especially to 'be in the moment'. 'Quieting the mind and being present' in a tiny aspect of the more religious aspects. The 'big problem' is possibly that they are 'doing it wrong'. If you want to 'get people in the moment'? Play sports. Meditation is supposed to be about 'less thoughts' but usually it leads to more and more self contemplation - which is the opposite of what we want. Want to 'shut off' the contemplative mind -> Use another part of the brain! Does anyone know people who 'like sports' that generally get depressed? No, I would say the opposite: generally more gregarious, positive, and care free. You don't have 'thoughts' while you are chasing a ball, or managing around that rock you're about to hit. And we all need more exercise. I find running more meditative than any kind of meditation.

xenocyon 6y ago

I'm having a hard time parsing your comment - you're making a lot of aspersions and ending with the generic platitude "there are no panaceas". Can you frame your objection a little more concretely or specifically?

8bitsrule 6y ago

There are many, many forms of meditation, with many supposed goals. So to say that "meditation is..." is a reduction to absurdity. If you do something and you don't like the outcome, you stop. Driving a car may also lead to ego-death ... probably much more likely than from meditation. Yet we do it. There are certainly forms of meditation that are risky. There are also forms of Olympic sport that are risky. People disappear simply while taking a walk through the great outdoors. Are there many hucksters trying to cash in on 'yoga' trends? Sure! I understand from many very old and very-earnest- traditions that a -real- spiritual teacher would -never- charge for help. 'Cashing in' is, after all, pretty much the antithesis of 'uplifting'. Jung often pointed out that our waking egos are like planets orbiting a Self that's Sun-sized ... and much more in control than we realize. Most spiritual traditions emphasize that there are many stages of realization. (In the east, chakras symbolize this.) While our present culture places little value on compassion or wisdom, this time is unusual in that way. (We're born with both, but it's easy to get lost.) Many people over millennia have learned that if we make the effort - noone else can do it - there are definite rewards. One place to get an overview of this history (Western perspective) is in Huxley's 'Perennial Philosophy'.

Shorel 6y ago
> Driving a car may also lead to ego-death ... Do you mean driving as a form of meditation or about having a fatal accident on the road?

ayushchat 6y ago

This is a very interesting take, but I think it applies more to transcendental meditation, not for mindfulness meditation. I think mindful practices are good stress relievers in general, which include free journaling, slow long walks, and also simple thought mindfulness where we just observe our thoughts dispassionately. (The word "meditation" should be removed from this activity IMHO to avoid confusion)