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This is probably oversimplified, but it does make some sense. Some people are happily trotting about in their objectively miserable lives. Sit them down and let

by dusted 6y ago

This is probably oversimplified, but it does make some sense. Some people are happily trotting about in their objectively miserable lives. Sit them down and let them think on it, and they just might realize how empty their lives are and how little control they have over their situation. I've always been very "mindful" and depending on your inclination to cynicism, that inevitably means finding out that life is what it is.

OneGuy123 6y ago
This. It's actually a step in the right direction even if they "suffer more": this is merely the first step. But this is an issue if they get stuck here unless driving this to the conclusion.
qznc 6y ago
So mindfulness meditation is like the Total Perspective Vortex? https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Total_Perspective_Vortex https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Total_Perspective_Vortex
culopatin 6y ago
Thinking about every aspect of my life in a very deep and logical way is what got me depressed. And what got me out of it was being busy enough that I didn't have time for that.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  This is no different than using alcohol, drugs, etc. AKA Workaholic. Just another way to distract oneself from the existential dread.
  - chasd00 6y ago
    what's so great about existential dread? If you don't have it then you don't have it. I read a book on Zen Buddhism once about 20 years ago and it made sense to me. I've never read or practiced anything related since which makes me a constant practitioner in a way. Maybe i'm blessed or cursed but, to me, the endless pursuit of meditation/mindfulness is the same as the endless pursuit of anything else.
    - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
      > what's so great about existential dread? If you don't have it then you don't have it. Not sure what you're even asking here - everyone has problems. Would you advise them to ignore their problems and instead distract themselves with something else? > Maybe i'm blessed or cursed but, to me, the endless pursuit of meditation/mindfulness is the same as the endless pursuit of anything else. So, in a word, nihilism.
- silveroriole 6y ago
  Yeah, I agree and I don’t understand the parent comment. As far as I know meditation is about NOT ruminating on thoughts, so a happy person surely shouldn’t become depressed by doing it. Sure, for most people, being told to sit in silence and reflect will make them unhappy. What the heck is the benefit of that? A lot of the work I do with CBT is to NOT reflect and ruminate and think about every aspect of my life and every decision I make. It works. I’m happier. Why would I want to get unhappy again because someone tells me it’s good for me? If that is the ‘benefit’ of meditation, I’ll pass!
  - loquor 6y ago
    That's a reasonable perspective. But the parent comment talked about a different kind of thinking. Constantly judgemental thinking is not healthy. If you just sit there meditating, and your idling mind (often) jumps to uncomfortably self-critical and doubtful thoughts, that is an unhealthy mental habit, right? Here is how meditation can help here. (1) You become okay with having those sort of thoughts - you don't have to flee from them or push them away. (2) You can observe exactly based on what you criticize yourself, or what you feel hung up on. (3) After meditating, with a clear mind, you can rationally consider those matters. "Huh, do I really regret <xyz> decision? Why does <abc> aspect of it bother me now that I notice it?". You can resolve this conflict now. This is my experience. Besides this, it just feels good to be calm. > Why would I want to get unhappy again because someone tells me it’s good for me? I also understand this sentiment. Sometimes if something gives you anxiety or intrusive thoughts, its better to leave it and let it slip by your thoughts rather than to bring it into attention. But even so I want to tell you this - a lot of the benefit of meditation comes not from exercising your cognitive and reasoning abilities, but from just being okay with how things are. It's really that simple.
    - silveroriole 6y ago
      CBT gives me the tools to do all of this much quicker. I simply write down anxious or critical thoughts and examine/interrogate them on paper. There seems to be no point in sitting with my eyes closed for twenty minutes when I can effectively chase off a negative thought with paper and pen in five. This also gives me practice with actually changing my thought patterns and building better life habits. I don’t see how focusing on my breath could possibly change my thoughts any more effectively than that.
Disruptive_Dave 6y ago
Ever read Zen In The Art of Archery[1]? In it, the author talks about how, when learning a brand new physical practice like archery, at first you just dive in and start doing it without knowing the fundamentals and, truly, how difficult it is. So you're kind of blessed by naivete. But as soon as you choose to learn it the right way, you're immediately sent back to basics and are faced with the fact that you know nothing and are likely the worst you'll ever be at this. But that's a necessary part of the journey. This happened to me in golf. I was naturally decent at it without ever taking a lesson or watching a video about how to swing. That only got me so far. Now I'm taking lessons and relearning everything. I feel worse at the sport today than I was two years ago. But if I acknowledge the truth in that and push forward, I'll ultimately be much better than I could have been. Same process with meditation. I've been practicing for 11+ years and right now my practice is pretty challenging. But that comes with the process. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Archery-Eugen-Herrigel/dp/0375705090 https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Archery-Eugen-Herrigel/dp/037...
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  Tiger Woods himself went through something similar - he got a new coach to up his game, and at first, his results got way worse, but then it really paid off for him.
bognition 6y ago
What is the difference between an objectively happy life and an objectively miserable life?
- tonyarkles 6y ago
  I’ll give you an example from my own life that meditation and therapy helped clear up for me. In my 20s, I would routinely get into yelling and screaming matches with girlfriends. There were two significant driving forces behind that: - that is how my parents interacted. Things are good, someone screws up, everyone yells at each other for a while, and the next day it’s as if nothing happened. There were addictions involved... - because it was the family dynamic I was used to, I was naturally attracted to people with similar disagreement-resolution styles. I started down this path when I met someone awesome (now going 10 years strong), and she came from a family that uhhh wasn’t quite as messed up as mine. We’d have a disagreement, I’d yell, and she would shut down. She basically told me that if I didn’t stop trying to argue like that, she’d be gone. So I started figuring out how to take something I was upset about and generally stay calm enough to discuss it, but the anger was still there, I was just suppressing it. Turns out, when I did that consistently, I started to go emotionally numb. Sure, I didn’t fly off the handle when I was upset, but I also didn’t find much joy in anything either (which I had before!) What I basically concluded one night was that I had effectively found my “volume knob” and I had turned it down too much. Therapy and meditation (encouraged by the therapist) helped me work through all the baggage that came from my weird childhood and helped me get that volume knob dialled in. Now I have wonderful joyful experiences, and when my partner and I have a disagreement about something, we can resolve it calmly. I don’t think I’ve yelled at a single human being in probably 8 years. Objectively happy vs. objectively miserable? I don’t know if objective applies since I didn’t collect any data :). But, if nothing else, I would wager my cortisol and other stress hormone levels are waaaaaaay down compared to how things used to be.
  - andrekandre 6y ago
    i used to be a very argumentative person, and one thing i noticed was a big difference between "supressing" vs "releasing" the emotion or need to argue supressing, for me anyways, always lead to more stress and then a huge random argument about totally irrellevant things... conversely, mentally imagining that im "letting go" of that need/feeling to make my point, was alot more effective
h0l0cube 6y ago
> Sit them down and let them think on it, and they just might realize how empty their lives are and how little control they have over their situation. As far as I'm aware, most meditation and mindful practices are descendent of Theravada buddhist discipline, which is not so much about rumination, but observing, and not reacting to one's thoughts and sensation, as well as the understanding that these thoughts and sensations will come to pass. So say, if you found yourself in a cycle of self-pitying rumination, with enough practice you would hopefully become aware of the arising of thought, and learn to not let it affect you, and allow it to pass. Such practice is difficult, and often dispiriting. Proper guidance by an expert is definitely encouraged, and mitigates these adverse outcomes.

by dusted 6y ago

OneGuy123 6y ago

This. It's actually a step in the right direction even if they "suffer more": this is merely the first step. But this is an issue if they get stuck here unless driving this to the conclusion.

qznc 6y ago

So mindfulness meditation is like the Total Perspective Vortex? https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Total_Perspective_Vortex https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Total_Perspective_Vortex

culopatin 6y ago

Thinking about every aspect of my life in a very deep and logical way is what got me depressed. And what got me out of it was being busy enough that I didn't have time for that.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
This is no different than using alcohol, drugs, etc. AKA Workaholic. Just another way to distract oneself from the existential dread.
- chasd00 6y ago
  what's so great about existential dread? If you don't have it then you don't have it. I read a book on Zen Buddhism once about 20 years ago and it made sense to me. I've never read or practiced anything related since which makes me a constant practitioner in a way. Maybe i'm blessed or cursed but, to me, the endless pursuit of meditation/mindfulness is the same as the endless pursuit of anything else.
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    > what's so great about existential dread? If you don't have it then you don't have it. Not sure what you're even asking here - everyone has problems. Would you advise them to ignore their problems and instead distract themselves with something else? > Maybe i'm blessed or cursed but, to me, the endless pursuit of meditation/mindfulness is the same as the endless pursuit of anything else. So, in a word, nihilism.
silveroriole 6y ago
Yeah, I agree and I don’t understand the parent comment. As far as I know meditation is about NOT ruminating on thoughts, so a happy person surely shouldn’t become depressed by doing it. Sure, for most people, being told to sit in silence and reflect will make them unhappy. What the heck is the benefit of that? A lot of the work I do with CBT is to NOT reflect and ruminate and think about every aspect of my life and every decision I make. It works. I’m happier. Why would I want to get unhappy again because someone tells me it’s good for me? If that is the ‘benefit’ of meditation, I’ll pass!
- loquor 6y ago
  That's a reasonable perspective. But the parent comment talked about a different kind of thinking. Constantly judgemental thinking is not healthy. If you just sit there meditating, and your idling mind (often) jumps to uncomfortably self-critical and doubtful thoughts, that is an unhealthy mental habit, right? Here is how meditation can help here. (1) You become okay with having those sort of thoughts - you don't have to flee from them or push them away. (2) You can observe exactly based on what you criticize yourself, or what you feel hung up on. (3) After meditating, with a clear mind, you can rationally consider those matters. "Huh, do I really regret <xyz> decision? Why does <abc> aspect of it bother me now that I notice it?". You can resolve this conflict now. This is my experience. Besides this, it just feels good to be calm. > Why would I want to get unhappy again because someone tells me it’s good for me? I also understand this sentiment. Sometimes if something gives you anxiety or intrusive thoughts, its better to leave it and let it slip by your thoughts rather than to bring it into attention. But even so I want to tell you this - a lot of the benefit of meditation comes not from exercising your cognitive and reasoning abilities, but from just being okay with how things are. It's really that simple.
  - silveroriole 6y ago
    CBT gives me the tools to do all of this much quicker. I simply write down anxious or critical thoughts and examine/interrogate them on paper. There seems to be no point in sitting with my eyes closed for twenty minutes when I can effectively chase off a negative thought with paper and pen in five. This also gives me practice with actually changing my thought patterns and building better life habits. I don’t see how focusing on my breath could possibly change my thoughts any more effectively than that.

Disruptive_Dave 6y ago

Ever read Zen In The Art of Archery[1]? In it, the author talks about how, when learning a brand new physical practice like archery, at first you just dive in and start doing it without knowing the fundamentals and, truly, how difficult it is. So you're kind of blessed by naivete. But as soon as you choose to learn it the right way, you're immediately sent back to basics and are faced with the fact that you know nothing and are likely the worst you'll ever be at this. But that's a necessary part of the journey. This happened to me in golf. I was naturally decent at it without ever taking a lesson or watching a video about how to swing. That only got me so far. Now I'm taking lessons and relearning everything. I feel worse at the sport today than I was two years ago. But if I acknowledge the truth in that and push forward, I'll ultimately be much better than I could have been. Same process with meditation. I've been practicing for 11+ years and right now my practice is pretty challenging. But that comes with the process. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Archery-Eugen-Herrigel/dp/0375705090 https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Archery-Eugen-Herrigel/dp/037...

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
Tiger Woods himself went through something similar - he got a new coach to up his game, and at first, his results got way worse, but then it really paid off for him.

bognition 6y ago

What is the difference between an objectively happy life and an objectively miserable life?

tonyarkles 6y ago
I’ll give you an example from my own life that meditation and therapy helped clear up for me. In my 20s, I would routinely get into yelling and screaming matches with girlfriends. There were two significant driving forces behind that: - that is how my parents interacted. Things are good, someone screws up, everyone yells at each other for a while, and the next day it’s as if nothing happened. There were addictions involved... - because it was the family dynamic I was used to, I was naturally attracted to people with similar disagreement-resolution styles. I started down this path when I met someone awesome (now going 10 years strong), and she came from a family that uhhh wasn’t quite as messed up as mine. We’d have a disagreement, I’d yell, and she would shut down. She basically told me that if I didn’t stop trying to argue like that, she’d be gone. So I started figuring out how to take something I was upset about and generally stay calm enough to discuss it, but the anger was still there, I was just suppressing it. Turns out, when I did that consistently, I started to go emotionally numb. Sure, I didn’t fly off the handle when I was upset, but I also didn’t find much joy in anything either (which I had before!) What I basically concluded one night was that I had effectively found my “volume knob” and I had turned it down too much. Therapy and meditation (encouraged by the therapist) helped me work through all the baggage that came from my weird childhood and helped me get that volume knob dialled in. Now I have wonderful joyful experiences, and when my partner and I have a disagreement about something, we can resolve it calmly. I don’t think I’ve yelled at a single human being in probably 8 years. Objectively happy vs. objectively miserable? I don’t know if objective applies since I didn’t collect any data :). But, if nothing else, I would wager my cortisol and other stress hormone levels are waaaaaaay down compared to how things used to be.
- andrekandre 6y ago
  i used to be a very argumentative person, and one thing i noticed was a big difference between "supressing" vs "releasing" the emotion or need to argue supressing, for me anyways, always lead to more stress and then a huge random argument about totally irrellevant things... conversely, mentally imagining that im "letting go" of that need/feeling to make my point, was alot more effective

h0l0cube 6y ago

> Sit them down and let them think on it, and they just might realize how empty their lives are and how little control they have over their situation. As far as I'm aware, most meditation and mindful practices are descendent of Theravada buddhist discipline, which is not so much about rumination, but observing, and not reacting to one's thoughts and sensation, as well as the understanding that these thoughts and sensations will come to pass. So say, if you found yourself in a cycle of self-pitying rumination, with enough practice you would hopefully become aware of the arising of thought, and learn to not let it affect you, and allow it to pass. Such practice is difficult, and often dispiriting. Proper guidance by an expert is definitely encouraged, and mitigates these adverse outcomes.