9 ms·

After fighting my body my entire life to fit with the mainstream, I switched to a 20-hours up, 7 hours down sleep schedule six months ago. I've never felt bette

After fighting my body my entire life to fit with the mainstream, I switched to a 20-hours up, 7 hours down sleep schedule six months ago. I've never felt better. Instead of feeling like a zombie until 5-6 hours into my day and working late into the night, I now can find myself working minutes after waking up - something I never thought possible. I'm roughly twice as productive as before. It is admittedly difficult to plan ahead; I don't have dependents and I am a solo developer, working on my own schedule. One silver lining of COVID is that people are finally getting a glimpse of what post-9-to-5 cubicle work styles can offer. Why shouldn't we work when and how we are most productive?

aaomidi 6y ago
Can you explain it more?
- peteforde 6y ago
  Sure: what would you like to know? Off the top of my head: - easier to find the will to exercise - less cravings for junk food - depression symptoms occur 80% less - back pain frequently forgets to manifest - I feel more optimistic It's not all roses, though. I am not traditionally employable because I work unpredictable hours. It can be hard to schedule doctor's appointments, for example. The hardest thing is syncing with my SO. She's actually inclined to keep similar hours, but has a 9-5 job. Still, this hasn't been a huge issue. I don't think it could work if you had young children.
  - aaomidi 6y ago
    More so what time do you go to bed and wake up, etc?
    - peteforde 6y ago
      I go to sleep 20 hours after I wake up, and I wake up 7 hours later.
      - PodCurator 6y ago
        So if I’m understanding correctly, do you end up doing a full 24 hour rotation every 8 days? Very interesting - how do you plan your week?
        peteforde 6y ago
        It can be hard, TBH - I actively minimize distractions anyhow, but this is on a different level. It's probably not for everyone. That all said, statistically I'm much more likely to be awake than not during the day, so many folks would have no idea. Usually there's only one day a week where I'm essentially going to sleep right when everyone else is starting their day. I'm lucky that my daily shift is 3h - two REM cycles - as it maps nicely onto the 24h schedule everyone else is on, most of the time. 1.5h or 4.5h would be really confusing to me.
      - joveian 6y ago
        I have a non-24 hour circadian rhythm and I think they are usually if not always closer to 24 hours than to that, but it is an interesting idea and as someone who also has bad insomnia I can see the appeal. However, one thing to keep in mind for anyone who doesn't already have Non-24 is that it may be that Non-24 has both a genetic aspect and a trigger and trying something like that could be the trigger that prevents you from sleeping on a 24 hour schedule again. I encourage everyone to be careful with your circadian rhythm since messing it up causes major problems (in my case, I get the strong sense that there is an issue with syncrhonization and different parts of my body shift at different rates and some parts synchronize with the sun). Also, some of us with Non-24 find it harder get to sleep during the day and I'd guess that would be the case for many people on this type of schedule (it might not be possible to keep a by-the-numbers schedule).
        peteforde 6y ago
        Some good points! I am not a doctor, but I have spent a lot of time in sleep clinics and reading about sleep. I am also quite familiar with the huge number of issues surrounding the relatively recent book "Why We Sleep" which is essentially considered partially-debunked at this point. I feel about that book the way most of us would feel about a book declaring that people who code or are interested in startups are missing opportunities to play more football. My rhythm seems to be off by two REM cycles eg 1.5hx2, and I actually find 3h pretty easy to manage as it loops around every 7-8 days. I don't have any trouble falling asleep during the day, because I own a https://nitehood.ca https://nitehood.ca - the discount code is August15 BTW.
  - brigandish 6y ago
    I'm going to join in as shifting your sleep pattern by 3 hours a night, if I've read it right, sounds (without meaning to be at all rude) a bit crazy. How did you decide to choose this pattern? Did you hear about it or was it part of a process, or did you stumble across it?
    - peteforde 6y ago
      I can appreciate how it might sound unsane if you've never dealt with sleep issues (jealous!) or read a ton about it. Ask away, but I did cover a bunch of these elsewhere in the thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24185624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24185624
      - brigandish 6y ago
        That's really interesting. I'm also jealous because I've had terrible sleep problems to the point that your choice of craziness would look less crazy! :) I've found that if I go to sleep within the same 15 minute window every night then I will wake up some time within the 3 minutes up to my alarm going off, often just a few seconds before. If I don't then my internal clock will immediately shift later and it's incredibly hard to follow the "old" pattern. I think I can get away with one late night every so often but never two. Right now I'm stable but it's very hard to convince the people around me that it's what I need, even though they've seen the effects of not doing it. I believe it's in the same realm as smoking or alcoholism, where if you have a problem then most people will say "why not stop drinking then?" as if that's some great insight. "Just go to sleep" isn't particularly helpful. And then, of course, they'll fall asleep with no problem and complain if they feel crap after one bad night :/ Really glad to hear you're feeling good on it! I hope it stays that way.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
travbrack 6y ago
Sounds interesting. I've often noticed that I sleep much better when I stay up longer than usual. I have commitments during the day that would prevent me from doing this though. Did you come up with the idea yourself? I didn't find anything on the web about it.
- peteforde 6y ago
  I spent 25 years feeling tired all of the time. Chronic night owl, I would find that my most productive periods would come precisely when I was "supposed" to go to sleep. I could either lay in bed, wide awake and frustrated, or end up destroyed the next day, which was basically every day. I'd try to catch up on weekends, but you'll find plenty online about how poorly this actually works. What changed is that I noticed how, left to my own devices without external schedule pressure, I would naturally drift 3h forward every day - and so I realized I had the opportunity to actually fully go with the schedule my body seemed to want to have. I informed my family what I intended to do, cleared my calendar for the next week, and went for it. First observation: my biggest hesitation was social judgement. I was consciously aware of how little I wanted people to think I was a weird dude. Well, turns out I'd rather be weird and feel great than normal and feel like a zombie. My body almost immediately seemed to breathe a sigh of relief and six months later, this part of my life is amazing. I find it endlessly curious how some people seem seriously distraught when I tell them what I've been up to. Not because they have any medical opinion, but because it appears to challenge something that clearly gives them a feeling of being normal. My doctor actually had very little to say, once they heard me out and read the research I gave them. Essentially, "please stop if you start feeling bad".
skrause 6y ago
Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/320/ https://xkcd.com/320/
benwills 6y ago
I've noticed the same thing myself at various times in my life. My most frequent sleep schedule I maintained was 4am to noon, but it drifts from that pretty often. And when it does, my days push longer. I actually mapped out a "6 day week," where I would sleep 8 hours and be up 20. It lines up with a 24/7 week where I wake up at the same time on the same day each week. Thank you for posting this. It's encouraging me to consider giving that a shot again. (especially since I woke up at 5pm and that's been pushing later again)
- john4534243 6y ago
  John Carmack was following this routine and some days he would come to office in the evening when no one was there and will leave before any one arrives.
inakarmacoma 6y ago
Apologies, could you elaborate a bit more with a few example times? How does it all work?
- peteforde 6y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24184127 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24184127 Feel free to ask more specific questions.

aaomidi 6y ago

Can you explain it more?

peteforde 6y ago
Sure: what would you like to know? Off the top of my head: - easier to find the will to exercise - less cravings for junk food - depression symptoms occur 80% less - back pain frequently forgets to manifest - I feel more optimistic It's not all roses, though. I am not traditionally employable because I work unpredictable hours. It can be hard to schedule doctor's appointments, for example. The hardest thing is syncing with my SO. She's actually inclined to keep similar hours, but has a 9-5 job. Still, this hasn't been a huge issue. I don't think it could work if you had young children.
- aaomidi 6y ago
  More so what time do you go to bed and wake up, etc?
  - peteforde 6y ago
    I go to sleep 20 hours after I wake up, and I wake up 7 hours later.
    - PodCurator 6y ago
      So if I’m understanding correctly, do you end up doing a full 24 hour rotation every 8 days? Very interesting - how do you plan your week?
      - peteforde 6y ago
        It can be hard, TBH - I actively minimize distractions anyhow, but this is on a different level. It's probably not for everyone. That all said, statistically I'm much more likely to be awake than not during the day, so many folks would have no idea. Usually there's only one day a week where I'm essentially going to sleep right when everyone else is starting their day. I'm lucky that my daily shift is 3h - two REM cycles - as it maps nicely onto the 24h schedule everyone else is on, most of the time. 1.5h or 4.5h would be really confusing to me.
    - joveian 6y ago
      I have a non-24 hour circadian rhythm and I think they are usually if not always closer to 24 hours than to that, but it is an interesting idea and as someone who also has bad insomnia I can see the appeal. However, one thing to keep in mind for anyone who doesn't already have Non-24 is that it may be that Non-24 has both a genetic aspect and a trigger and trying something like that could be the trigger that prevents you from sleeping on a 24 hour schedule again. I encourage everyone to be careful with your circadian rhythm since messing it up causes major problems (in my case, I get the strong sense that there is an issue with syncrhonization and different parts of my body shift at different rates and some parts synchronize with the sun). Also, some of us with Non-24 find it harder get to sleep during the day and I'd guess that would be the case for many people on this type of schedule (it might not be possible to keep a by-the-numbers schedule).
      - peteforde 6y ago
        Some good points! I am not a doctor, but I have spent a lot of time in sleep clinics and reading about sleep. I am also quite familiar with the huge number of issues surrounding the relatively recent book "Why We Sleep" which is essentially considered partially-debunked at this point. I feel about that book the way most of us would feel about a book declaring that people who code or are interested in startups are missing opportunities to play more football. My rhythm seems to be off by two REM cycles eg 1.5hx2, and I actually find 3h pretty easy to manage as it loops around every 7-8 days. I don't have any trouble falling asleep during the day, because I own a https://nitehood.ca https://nitehood.ca - the discount code is August15 BTW.
- brigandish 6y ago
  I'm going to join in as shifting your sleep pattern by 3 hours a night, if I've read it right, sounds (without meaning to be at all rude) a bit crazy. How did you decide to choose this pattern? Did you hear about it or was it part of a process, or did you stumble across it?
  - peteforde 6y ago
    I can appreciate how it might sound unsane if you've never dealt with sleep issues (jealous!) or read a ton about it. Ask away, but I did cover a bunch of these elsewhere in the thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24185624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24185624
    - brigandish 6y ago
      That's really interesting. I'm also jealous because I've had terrible sleep problems to the point that your choice of craziness would look less crazy! :) I've found that if I go to sleep within the same 15 minute window every night then I will wake up some time within the 3 minutes up to my alarm going off, often just a few seconds before. If I don't then my internal clock will immediately shift later and it's incredibly hard to follow the "old" pattern. I think I can get away with one late night every so often but never two. Right now I'm stable but it's very hard to convince the people around me that it's what I need, even though they've seen the effects of not doing it. I believe it's in the same realm as smoking or alcoholism, where if you have a problem then most people will say "why not stop drinking then?" as if that's some great insight. "Just go to sleep" isn't particularly helpful. And then, of course, they'll fall asleep with no problem and complain if they feel crap after one bad night :/ Really glad to hear you're feeling good on it! I hope it stays that way.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

travbrack 6y ago

Sounds interesting. I've often noticed that I sleep much better when I stay up longer than usual. I have commitments during the day that would prevent me from doing this though. Did you come up with the idea yourself? I didn't find anything on the web about it.

peteforde 6y ago
I spent 25 years feeling tired all of the time. Chronic night owl, I would find that my most productive periods would come precisely when I was "supposed" to go to sleep. I could either lay in bed, wide awake and frustrated, or end up destroyed the next day, which was basically every day. I'd try to catch up on weekends, but you'll find plenty online about how poorly this actually works. What changed is that I noticed how, left to my own devices without external schedule pressure, I would naturally drift 3h forward every day - and so I realized I had the opportunity to actually fully go with the schedule my body seemed to want to have. I informed my family what I intended to do, cleared my calendar for the next week, and went for it. First observation: my biggest hesitation was social judgement. I was consciously aware of how little I wanted people to think I was a weird dude. Well, turns out I'd rather be weird and feel great than normal and feel like a zombie. My body almost immediately seemed to breathe a sigh of relief and six months later, this part of my life is amazing. I find it endlessly curious how some people seem seriously distraught when I tell them what I've been up to. Not because they have any medical opinion, but because it appears to challenge something that clearly gives them a feeling of being normal. My doctor actually had very little to say, once they heard me out and read the research I gave them. Essentially, "please stop if you start feeling bad".

skrause 6y ago

Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/320/ https://xkcd.com/320/

benwills 6y ago

I've noticed the same thing myself at various times in my life. My most frequent sleep schedule I maintained was 4am to noon, but it drifts from that pretty often. And when it does, my days push longer. I actually mapped out a "6 day week," where I would sleep 8 hours and be up 20. It lines up with a 24/7 week where I wake up at the same time on the same day each week. Thank you for posting this. It's encouraging me to consider giving that a shot again. (especially since I woke up at 5pm and that's been pushing later again)

john4534243 6y ago
John Carmack was following this routine and some days he would come to office in the evening when no one was there and will leave before any one arrives.

inakarmacoma 6y ago

Apologies, could you elaborate a bit more with a few example times? How does it all work?

peteforde 6y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24184127 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24184127 Feel free to ask more specific questions.