5 ms·

Uhh, maybe US cities haven’t, but here in Tokyo I never smell feces, step on needles, nor are there hordes of homeless people in every major part of the neighbo

Uhh, maybe US cities haven’t, but here in Tokyo I never smell feces, step on needles, nor are there hordes of homeless people in every major part of the neighborhood, in a city that has affordable housing, a truly phenomenal public transit network, streets that pretty much never have potholes, and endless cultural and culinary amenities, in a place with GDP per capita far lower than SF. And it similarly was the case for pretty much every city I’ve been to in East Asia, so it’s not even just a Tokyo thing. I was active in SF housing politics when I lived there for 8 years, and my conclusion is that SF and most other US cities incompetent local governments (SF’s especially) are stuck in a mindset where they still repeatedly declare that they’re “great!” despite their blatantly subpar infrastructure and the rampant, systematic trampling of their own citizens human rights. Perhaps it is great for the elderly voters who never leave their homes in the burbs and see the “undesirables”. They make excuses about how US culture makes tried and true solutions in other cities impossible to implement (So... are they saying US culture is just inferior?), and that things will get better just around the corner (when it costs 10x more and takes 10x longer to make any updates to the built infrastructure in US cities than anywhere else, and SF itself has built virtually nothing in the last 40 years). Maybe it will, but I decided for myself that I’m not willing to wait around for it, and chose one of the countless cities in the world that in fact does do better.

selectodude 6y ago
Not all of us have the opportunity to just up and leave the US, unfortunately.
- osdiab 6y ago
  I hope US cities wake up, become humble, and actually try to fix the deep hole of social issues they’ve dug themselves into. Best I can say is be active and vocal in your local government, since that’s where these messed up policies come from and you have a lot more power to impact your city than you do the federal government.
  - selectodude 6y ago
    Our cities have the power but due to the way things are funded here, they simply don’t have the money to actually fix stuff.
    - BurningFrog 6y ago
      San Francisco's budget is $12B/year.
      - lotsofpulp 6y ago
        And that won’t go very far if they started to offer free mental health care and housing because they will start to get people shipped in from everywhere else.
        BurningFrog 6y ago
        Providing housing need not cost the city anything. They just have to stop banning construction.
        fragmede 6y ago
        I'm on team "build more housing", but providing housing (as in, the city pays for housing for the poor who can't afford to pay for their own housing) directly costs the city money, if the city is paying rent to the landlord; costs the city money if the city buys the building/pays for construction; and indirectly costs the city money in lost property tax for units that the city designates as BMR units. Allowing construction will alleviate pressure on the system as a whole, but, perhaps due to a failure of my imagination, I'm not seeing ways in which it won't cost something. I think it's worth it, mind you, I'm just not seeing how to make it $0.
        BurningFrog 6y ago
        Yeah, I guess "providing" was a poor choice of words. In 2020 SF, even the upper middle class struggle to pay for housing. If you, as a first step, allow the housing stock to double, twice as many people can afford to live in the city, and life in SF becomes much more accessible. Sure, there will always be people out of luck needing some assistance. But it should dwindle down to a smaller core when there are places to live. Personally, I don't believe in government run housing. It's better to help people with rent money etc. But of course, none of this will ever happen in SF, so my opinions don't matter.
csomar 6y ago
I don't think you are reading the parent poster. Tokyo was probably rubble in 1945 then it re-invented itself into a world-class city. Hong Kong was (probably still is for now) a world class city for the rich and the free and now is on path to become a hell-hole for both. Cities swing through a pendulum of up and down. SF might be going to ruins but it'll be back. It might have to reach rock-bottom first before re-inventing itself though.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
  Property is extremely expensive in HK, so it's long been a hell-hole for the poor: https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2017/05/the-coffin-homes-of-hong-kong/526881/ https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2017/05/the-coffin-homes-o... That said, the city does not have visible homeless or crime problems of most large US cities, partly because you can legally get a coffin for $300/month.
  - rtlfe 6y ago
    > That said, the city does not have visible homeless or crime problems of most large US cities. Why not? Are there support systems to give people shelter and reduce the need for crimes of desperation?
    - 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
      Hong Kong has an imperfect but subsistence-level dole system (CSSA), coffin house style bad but cheap housing (notably absent in SF), less of a drug problem, and a more functional system for taking care of the mentally ill.
      - eru 6y ago
        Yes, it would be interesting to see what would happen if SF legalised housing again.
- kgin 6y ago
  Tokyo absolutely took advantage of that clean slate, but San Francisco's issues don't seem to be related to physical infrastructure.
electriclove 6y ago
How did you make the move? Are you Japanese or Asian? I would love to move to Tokyo or similar but feel I would be discriminated against for being a dark skinned Indian male.
- osdiab 6y ago
  I’m half southeast Asian, which is different enough people can tell if they get close, but close enough that I can blend in in a crowd. It depends where in Japan you’re moving to as well - but being in Tokyo it’s definitely global and people are generally used to foreigners. Your mileage may vary being more visibly “different”, as well as you motivation to learn Japanese/local customs (I’m pretty conversational, which took a lot of work), and your sensitivity to being treated differently - though for me I mostly don’t take it personally.
  - electriclove 6y ago
    Thanks for the response. I think I wouldn't be too sensitive regarding being treated different but I would feel more sensitive to how my wife and kids experience it. It's the same issue keeping me away from places in the US like Idaho and Montana.
    - osdiab 6y ago
      Oh, I didn't answer the how - I had been to Japan a lot, so I already had friends here. When I made the move permanent, I had cofounded a company with a few friends, piloted doing remote work from here a couple times before actually moving to convince the team that it can work. Once we were all onboard with it, I crashed at my friend's apartment while going apartment hunting with my Japanese then-girlfriend (now-wife). When I first arrived permanently I was on a tourist visa waiver, but then switched to a student visa studying Japanese (since I was planning to anyway). It was 6 months of full time school + full time job which was exhausting, but after we got married then I switched to a spouse visa and life calmed down since. I don't know what your profession or situation is, but if you can line up a job you can pretty easily get a work visa (it's much less binding than US work visas). Japanese corporations are known to have pretty brutal work culture so that's something you ought to be aware of when searching, if you seriously pursue it. Hope it's interesting food for thought :)

selectodude 6y ago

Not all of us have the opportunity to just up and leave the US, unfortunately.

osdiab 6y ago
I hope US cities wake up, become humble, and actually try to fix the deep hole of social issues they’ve dug themselves into. Best I can say is be active and vocal in your local government, since that’s where these messed up policies come from and you have a lot more power to impact your city than you do the federal government.
- selectodude 6y ago
  Our cities have the power but due to the way things are funded here, they simply don’t have the money to actually fix stuff.
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    San Francisco's budget is $12B/year.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      And that won’t go very far if they started to offer free mental health care and housing because they will start to get people shipped in from everywhere else.
      - BurningFrog 6y ago
        Providing housing need not cost the city anything. They just have to stop banning construction.
        fragmede 6y ago
        I'm on team "build more housing", but providing housing (as in, the city pays for housing for the poor who can't afford to pay for their own housing) directly costs the city money, if the city is paying rent to the landlord; costs the city money if the city buys the building/pays for construction; and indirectly costs the city money in lost property tax for units that the city designates as BMR units. Allowing construction will alleviate pressure on the system as a whole, but, perhaps due to a failure of my imagination, I'm not seeing ways in which it won't cost something. I think it's worth it, mind you, I'm just not seeing how to make it $0.
        BurningFrog 6y ago
        Yeah, I guess "providing" was a poor choice of words. In 2020 SF, even the upper middle class struggle to pay for housing. If you, as a first step, allow the housing stock to double, twice as many people can afford to live in the city, and life in SF becomes much more accessible. Sure, there will always be people out of luck needing some assistance. But it should dwindle down to a smaller core when there are places to live. Personally, I don't believe in government run housing. It's better to help people with rent money etc. But of course, none of this will ever happen in SF, so my opinions don't matter.

csomar 6y ago

I don't think you are reading the parent poster. Tokyo was probably rubble in 1945 then it re-invented itself into a world-class city. Hong Kong was (probably still is for now) a world class city for the rich and the free and now is on path to become a hell-hole for both. Cities swing through a pendulum of up and down. SF might be going to ruins but it'll be back. It might have to reach rock-bottom first before re-inventing itself though.

9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
Property is extremely expensive in HK, so it's long been a hell-hole for the poor: https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2017/05/the-coffin-homes-of-hong-kong/526881/ https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2017/05/the-coffin-homes-o... That said, the city does not have visible homeless or crime problems of most large US cities, partly because you can legally get a coffin for $300/month.
- rtlfe 6y ago
  > That said, the city does not have visible homeless or crime problems of most large US cities. Why not? Are there support systems to give people shelter and reduce the need for crimes of desperation?
  - 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
    Hong Kong has an imperfect but subsistence-level dole system (CSSA), coffin house style bad but cheap housing (notably absent in SF), less of a drug problem, and a more functional system for taking care of the mentally ill.
    - eru 6y ago
      Yes, it would be interesting to see what would happen if SF legalised housing again.
kgin 6y ago
Tokyo absolutely took advantage of that clean slate, but San Francisco's issues don't seem to be related to physical infrastructure.

electriclove 6y ago

How did you make the move? Are you Japanese or Asian? I would love to move to Tokyo or similar but feel I would be discriminated against for being a dark skinned Indian male.

osdiab 6y ago
I’m half southeast Asian, which is different enough people can tell if they get close, but close enough that I can blend in in a crowd. It depends where in Japan you’re moving to as well - but being in Tokyo it’s definitely global and people are generally used to foreigners. Your mileage may vary being more visibly “different”, as well as you motivation to learn Japanese/local customs (I’m pretty conversational, which took a lot of work), and your sensitivity to being treated differently - though for me I mostly don’t take it personally.
- electriclove 6y ago
  Thanks for the response. I think I wouldn't be too sensitive regarding being treated different but I would feel more sensitive to how my wife and kids experience it. It's the same issue keeping me away from places in the US like Idaho and Montana.
  - osdiab 6y ago
    Oh, I didn't answer the how - I had been to Japan a lot, so I already had friends here. When I made the move permanent, I had cofounded a company with a few friends, piloted doing remote work from here a couple times before actually moving to convince the team that it can work. Once we were all onboard with it, I crashed at my friend's apartment while going apartment hunting with my Japanese then-girlfriend (now-wife). When I first arrived permanently I was on a tourist visa waiver, but then switched to a student visa studying Japanese (since I was planning to anyway). It was 6 months of full time school + full time job which was exhausting, but after we got married then I switched to a spouse visa and life calmed down since. I don't know what your profession or situation is, but if you can line up a job you can pretty easily get a work visa (it's much less binding than US work visas). Japanese corporations are known to have pretty brutal work culture so that's something you ought to be aware of when searching, if you seriously pursue it. Hope it's interesting food for thought :)