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Lisp has two big ideas. The first big idea is that a regular syntax allows the trivial implementation of macros. Just have a separate compilation where the AST

by smabie 6y ago

Lisp has two big ideas. The first big idea is that a regular syntax allows the trivial implementation of macros. Just have a separate compilation where the AST is passed in as a list to different macros and then compile the result. The second idea (not shared by the some Lisps like Scheme) is that of a system image which is modified in real time. This allows on the fly debugging, adding of new features, etc with no downtime. Macros have worked there way into languages like Julia or Nim, while the system image idea is mostly constrained to Smalltalk and Common Lisp. The best example of the power of macros is Racket, which has world class meta programming facilities and is probably the best language in existence for creating new languages, DSLs, and doing experimental PL research. I've used both CL and Racket professionally, and they both shine in certain situations. That being said, I've grown tired of the relative verbosity of both languages (minimal syntax has a high cost) and the performance and productivity cost of dynamic typing. For most new engineering projects, I'd much rather use something like OCaml or Scala than CL or Racket. For scientific computing, I usually go with Julia or kdb+/q. That being said, I think Racket especially shines in the development of internal business or research tools. The large number of high quality libraries (especially for GUIs) makes it a great choice for desktop apps.

hackingthenews 6y ago
Thanks! I haven't really experienced the image feature, as I used Scheme. It doesn't sound like it would be consequential to how I program, but that might just be my ignorance of it. My experience with the macro stuff is that they enable in-house implementation of language features like lazy evaluation (not possible in other languages without a lot of extra code), which we implemented during the course. But implementing features like that is not really something I need to do for my everyday programming.
- smabie 6y ago
  The power of macros goes beyond just core language features. For example, Racket has a prolog implementation, an OOP implementation, contracts, and much more, all developed with macros. You can generate HTML, do templating, or write documentation, all with macros. There's a certain magical feeling as a library designer when you can decide upon whatever syntax you want, with absolutely no constraints. Leads to the development of some very cool and clean stuff. For example, I used Racket macros at my old job as a bio informatics researcher at a hospital to design a DSL to specify bio informatics processing pipelines. You could either write it yourself, or you could use a GUI to manipulate a visual graph of operations and write out the pipeline using the DSL to a file. These sort of DSL use cases are a lot more common than people think, mostly because they don't think of an API as a new language, merely as some code written in an existing one. When you realize that macros can be used to eliminate all repetition and all patterns, you start to think in a different way. Designing proper interfaces with macros can be challenging though: you want to provide a nice syntax that is both composable with other macros, and clean. Also macros allow the core language to be paired down and very simple. Stuff like Scheme, in which all desired features (OOP, actors, async, generators, etc) can be implemented by external packages. But like I said, I don't use Lisp much anymore. Functional programming with higher kindred types goes a long way in matching the power of macros, albeit in a more structured way. Of course, type systems will always fall short of the unlimited power of macros, but for a lot of problems it's more than sufficient. Think of Lisp as the prototypical programming language, the essence of transforming symbols into other symbols. Lisp forms the base, on top of which all other features can be implemented.
- digikar 6y ago
  >Image The best video I've come across thwt demonstrates images is https://youtu.be/3GEAINRCbJ4 https://youtu.be/3GEAINRCbJ4 TBH, one can use emacs to get a similar workflow in single file python projects. There are also julia-snail and slime variants in emacs for providing it for julia; none of which I've tested to comment much.
- kazinator 6y ago
  I had many epiphanies as a CS student in all sorts of CS areas. It was because I was always taking things out of their educational context, and finding applications in programming, or at least seeing what the "big deal" is. E.g. learning about red-black trees inspired me to write a decent C implementation of them, as something I could use. That ended up used in production all over the place, like in the ext2fsck program. Undoubtedly, some of my classmates likely also had the reaction "when would I, in everyday programming, be rotating some nodes to balance a tree ..."
mst 6y ago
It's well worth looking at interlisp's file/image hybrid approach if you haven't already. I think there's a lot to be said for it.
kazinator 6y ago
> The first big idea is that a regular syntax allows the trivial implementation of macros. Note that Lisp existed for quite a while before macros. The regular syntax allowed for the evaluation algorithm of Lisp to be described as if it were a Lisp procedure itself, and it allowed the language to be extended with "FEXPR" routines.

by smabie 6y ago

hackingthenews 6y ago

Thanks! I haven't really experienced the image feature, as I used Scheme. It doesn't sound like it would be consequential to how I program, but that might just be my ignorance of it. My experience with the macro stuff is that they enable in-house implementation of language features like lazy evaluation (not possible in other languages without a lot of extra code), which we implemented during the course. But implementing features like that is not really something I need to do for my everyday programming.

smabie 6y ago
The power of macros goes beyond just core language features. For example, Racket has a prolog implementation, an OOP implementation, contracts, and much more, all developed with macros. You can generate HTML, do templating, or write documentation, all with macros. There's a certain magical feeling as a library designer when you can decide upon whatever syntax you want, with absolutely no constraints. Leads to the development of some very cool and clean stuff. For example, I used Racket macros at my old job as a bio informatics researcher at a hospital to design a DSL to specify bio informatics processing pipelines. You could either write it yourself, or you could use a GUI to manipulate a visual graph of operations and write out the pipeline using the DSL to a file. These sort of DSL use cases are a lot more common than people think, mostly because they don't think of an API as a new language, merely as some code written in an existing one. When you realize that macros can be used to eliminate all repetition and all patterns, you start to think in a different way. Designing proper interfaces with macros can be challenging though: you want to provide a nice syntax that is both composable with other macros, and clean. Also macros allow the core language to be paired down and very simple. Stuff like Scheme, in which all desired features (OOP, actors, async, generators, etc) can be implemented by external packages. But like I said, I don't use Lisp much anymore. Functional programming with higher kindred types goes a long way in matching the power of macros, albeit in a more structured way. Of course, type systems will always fall short of the unlimited power of macros, but for a lot of problems it's more than sufficient. Think of Lisp as the prototypical programming language, the essence of transforming symbols into other symbols. Lisp forms the base, on top of which all other features can be implemented.
digikar 6y ago
>Image The best video I've come across thwt demonstrates images is https://youtu.be/3GEAINRCbJ4 https://youtu.be/3GEAINRCbJ4 TBH, one can use emacs to get a similar workflow in single file python projects. There are also julia-snail and slime variants in emacs for providing it for julia; none of which I've tested to comment much.
kazinator 6y ago
I had many epiphanies as a CS student in all sorts of CS areas. It was because I was always taking things out of their educational context, and finding applications in programming, or at least seeing what the "big deal" is. E.g. learning about red-black trees inspired me to write a decent C implementation of them, as something I could use. That ended up used in production all over the place, like in the ext2fsck program. Undoubtedly, some of my classmates likely also had the reaction "when would I, in everyday programming, be rotating some nodes to balance a tree ..."

mst 6y ago

It's well worth looking at interlisp's file/image hybrid approach if you haven't already. I think there's a lot to be said for it.

kazinator 6y ago

> The first big idea is that a regular syntax allows the trivial implementation of macros. Note that Lisp existed for quite a while before macros. The regular syntax allowed for the evaluation algorithm of Lisp to be described as if it were a Lisp procedure itself, and it allowed the language to be extended with "FEXPR" routines.