6 ms·

A big pile of 'meh'. They are trying to make a statistical guess based on priors because the pandemic prevented the exams from being written. They are going to

A big pile of 'meh'. They are trying to make a statistical guess based on priors because the pandemic prevented the exams from being written. They are going to get things wrong. If they have an appeals process for things that are completely out line (e.g. a passing student getting a failing grade), then that's the best you can hope for given the circumstances. In the big picture, the good students are going to get good markers, average students are going to get average markets, and bad students will get bad markets. Again, it is what it is.

alexanderskates 6y ago
The problem is that the prior appears to be placed over the school, rather than the individual -- ie if your school had a low proportion of high achievers in previous years, students are finding their grades marked down, almost regardless of their performance. This results in particularly high grade disparity between independent and state schools. So it is not so much the case that good students get good marks, bad students get bad marks, but rather good schools get good marks, "bad" schools get bad marks.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  Because mark inflation is a thing, and schools are different. There are schools that will give out A+ and others a B, for the same academic performance. School reputations don't change from year to year. So a school that inflates marks one year, will more than likely inflate them the next year. Are you suggesting that this should not be taken into consideration? That you should simply trust the relative weight of grade (relative to all the other schools) at face-value? >"bad" schools get bad marks. Why the quotes? There are schools that are at the bottom of academic rankings. That's a fact of reality. >students are finding their grades marked down, almost regardless of their performance. What numbers are we talking about here? No matter what algorithm or heuristic they chose, some unfairness was going to happen and my argument is that these cases are overstated. I'm sure they exist because we're talking about hundreds of thousands of students all in different circumstances. Having said that, in cases of egregious outcome, an appeals process would make sense. Also I'm sure many universities will take the pandemic into consideration and the fact that this was a best attempt at replicating standardizing test result without a test actually being taken.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    Per other thread, A levels are marked outside the school by the qualifications body.
    - macspoofing 6y ago
      Right. A levels were not written so a statistical model was created to approximate A level results based on prior performance of applicants correlated with their school and course marks. Yeah, I get all that. It changes nothing about my argument.
viburnum 6y ago
Nope, they excluded small schools (expensive private schools) from the algorithm.
- russholmes 6y ago
  Small classes are excluded, so as you say, biased towards private schools. My niece was hit by this but luckily still did well enough to get a place. She was attending a large school in a deprived area. Her coursework was A*, given predicted AAA but was downgraded to ABB. The minister of education's reason for downgrading the grades was so that pupils did not end up in jobs they were not capable of doing. Delicious irony.
  - switch007 6y ago
    > The minister of education's reason for downgrading the grades was so that pupils did not end up in jobs they were not capable of doing. Delicious irony. Fake news, sorry. https://fullfact.org/education/gavin-williamson-fake-quote/ https://fullfact.org/education/gavin-williamson-fake-quote/
    - throwaway45349 6y ago
      Colloquially, worth remembering: "exams don't get you jobs, they just prevent you from getting jobs."
ngcazz 6y ago
Even if you weren't completely mistaken in your assumptions, shouldn't students have the right to get the exam grades they actually deserve? I was at best average in secondary school and I had to kick it up a few notch for the national exams (Portuguese A-level equivalent). Under your "meh" style, I'd have lost at least a year before I'd be able to enroll in uni, because whatever!, despite getting scores above the 95th percentile in my exams. Solidarity clearly means nothing here.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  >shouldn't students have the right to get the exam grades they actually deserve? Look, nothing I've seen here changes the base fact that if you were a good students getting good grades, you are going to be OK. It also doesn't change the base fact that mark inflation exits. That some schools will grade higher than others for the same academic performance. So no, you don't have a 'right' to a mark you haven't earned. If you had weak course marks in a school that inflates marks, you don't get to the spot of another student that worked hard during the term and was in a school that did not inflate marks. I have yet to see a good argument that this model is bad (and it may be), or percentage of students have gotten a grade that is out of line with expectations. Also, I do support an appeals process for the cases where the algorithm just got it completely wrong. >I was at best average in secondary school and I had to kick it up a few notch for the national exams (Portuguese A-level equivalent) If you were a bad students, or a student on some margin, you were always going to rely on luck to get through. What if the the set of questions on the standardized test just so happen to coincide with areas you were weak in? I was in situations where I had a weak grasp on course material, but the exam just so happened to have questions in areas that I was strong in and I got a higher mark than I probably deserved. It happens. But again, things just average themselves out over time and students will end up where they 'deserve' to be. >Under your "meh" style, I'd have lost at least a year before I'd be able to enroll in un I'll play along. Let's say you had weak course marks and you were hoping to use the test to boost your final score to get into the school of your choice. Then covid happened and you weren't able to. Well... take that as important life lesson. Don't slack off until the end and hope that you can make up your grades with the exams.
  - 6y ago
stordoff 6y ago
> In the big picture, the good students are going to get good markers, average students are going to get average markets, and bad students will get bad markets. Again, it is what it is. In my year, I and one other student had to go significantly beyond the support provided to get the grades we needed. I studied one A-Level entirely outside school as they couldn't make the timetable work, and then added another to be done in a year (typically a two year course) because my school had given me bad advice about which were required. If it were this year, and my school were known for overpmarking, I'd face getting downgraded for something I had no control over. I was predicted, and needed, the top grades (AAA) in specific subjects, and even dropping to AAB would mean not getting into my university of choice. It can be a kick in the teeth for anyone who has put the extra effort in.

alexanderskates 6y ago

The problem is that the prior appears to be placed over the school, rather than the individual -- ie if your school had a low proportion of high achievers in previous years, students are finding their grades marked down, almost regardless of their performance. This results in particularly high grade disparity between independent and state schools. So it is not so much the case that good students get good marks, bad students get bad marks, but rather good schools get good marks, "bad" schools get bad marks.

macspoofing 6y ago
Because mark inflation is a thing, and schools are different. There are schools that will give out A+ and others a B, for the same academic performance. School reputations don't change from year to year. So a school that inflates marks one year, will more than likely inflate them the next year. Are you suggesting that this should not be taken into consideration? That you should simply trust the relative weight of grade (relative to all the other schools) at face-value? >"bad" schools get bad marks. Why the quotes? There are schools that are at the bottom of academic rankings. That's a fact of reality. >students are finding their grades marked down, almost regardless of their performance. What numbers are we talking about here? No matter what algorithm or heuristic they chose, some unfairness was going to happen and my argument is that these cases are overstated. I'm sure they exist because we're talking about hundreds of thousands of students all in different circumstances. Having said that, in cases of egregious outcome, an appeals process would make sense. Also I'm sure many universities will take the pandemic into consideration and the fact that this was a best attempt at replicating standardizing test result without a test actually being taken.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Per other thread, A levels are marked outside the school by the qualifications body.
  - macspoofing 6y ago
    Right. A levels were not written so a statistical model was created to approximate A level results based on prior performance of applicants correlated with their school and course marks. Yeah, I get all that. It changes nothing about my argument.

viburnum 6y ago

Nope, they excluded small schools (expensive private schools) from the algorithm.

russholmes 6y ago
Small classes are excluded, so as you say, biased towards private schools. My niece was hit by this but luckily still did well enough to get a place. She was attending a large school in a deprived area. Her coursework was A*, given predicted AAA but was downgraded to ABB. The minister of education's reason for downgrading the grades was so that pupils did not end up in jobs they were not capable of doing. Delicious irony.
- switch007 6y ago
  > The minister of education's reason for downgrading the grades was so that pupils did not end up in jobs they were not capable of doing. Delicious irony. Fake news, sorry. https://fullfact.org/education/gavin-williamson-fake-quote/ https://fullfact.org/education/gavin-williamson-fake-quote/
  - throwaway45349 6y ago
    Colloquially, worth remembering: "exams don't get you jobs, they just prevent you from getting jobs."

ngcazz 6y ago

Even if you weren't completely mistaken in your assumptions, shouldn't students have the right to get the exam grades they actually deserve? I was at best average in secondary school and I had to kick it up a few notch for the national exams (Portuguese A-level equivalent). Under your "meh" style, I'd have lost at least a year before I'd be able to enroll in uni, because whatever!, despite getting scores above the 95th percentile in my exams. Solidarity clearly means nothing here.

macspoofing 6y ago
>shouldn't students have the right to get the exam grades they actually deserve? Look, nothing I've seen here changes the base fact that if you were a good students getting good grades, you are going to be OK. It also doesn't change the base fact that mark inflation exits. That some schools will grade higher than others for the same academic performance. So no, you don't have a 'right' to a mark you haven't earned. If you had weak course marks in a school that inflates marks, you don't get to the spot of another student that worked hard during the term and was in a school that did not inflate marks. I have yet to see a good argument that this model is bad (and it may be), or percentage of students have gotten a grade that is out of line with expectations. Also, I do support an appeals process for the cases where the algorithm just got it completely wrong. >I was at best average in secondary school and I had to kick it up a few notch for the national exams (Portuguese A-level equivalent) If you were a bad students, or a student on some margin, you were always going to rely on luck to get through. What if the the set of questions on the standardized test just so happen to coincide with areas you were weak in? I was in situations where I had a weak grasp on course material, but the exam just so happened to have questions in areas that I was strong in and I got a higher mark than I probably deserved. It happens. But again, things just average themselves out over time and students will end up where they 'deserve' to be. >Under your "meh" style, I'd have lost at least a year before I'd be able to enroll in un I'll play along. Let's say you had weak course marks and you were hoping to use the test to boost your final score to get into the school of your choice. Then covid happened and you weren't able to. Well... take that as important life lesson. Don't slack off until the end and hope that you can make up your grades with the exams.
- 6y ago

stordoff 6y ago

> In the big picture, the good students are going to get good markers, average students are going to get average markets, and bad students will get bad markets. Again, it is what it is. In my year, I and one other student had to go significantly beyond the support provided to get the grades we needed. I studied one A-Level entirely outside school as they couldn't make the timetable work, and then added another to be done in a year (typically a two year course) because my school had given me bad advice about which were required. If it were this year, and my school were known for overpmarking, I'd face getting downgraded for something I had no control over. I was predicted, and needed, the top grades (AAA) in specific subjects, and even dropping to AAB would mean not getting into my university of choice. It can be a kick in the teeth for anyone who has put the extra effort in.