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> No, you're missing the point. There is a difference between election fraud (the election itself meddled with by those who administer it) and voter fraud (wher
by hpcjoe 6y ago
> No, you're missing the point. There is a difference between election fraud (the election itself meddled with by those who administer it) and voter fraud (whereby US or foreign citizens not involved in the administration of the election nevertheless interfere by submitting fraudulent ballots / hacking / etc).
No, I don't think I was "missing the point." I carefully used the word "fraud". Not "electoral fraud". Nor "voter fraud." Specifically, as I did not wish to set up a straw man argument.
Your statement of "the premise that VOTER FRAUD happens or not is highly politicised" is, quite literally, the straw man argument.
First off, fraud, of all forms occurs. Second, the nature of that fraud, who performs it, is who acknowledges it is the issue. Some groups do not believe in voter fraud. Yet, ballot harvesting, which falls clearly under potential fraud, occurs widely in some states, particular those with a strong political leaning in one particular direction. Some groups do not believe in suppression, yet poorly managed elections disenfranchising voters. Again, GA, MI, and others.
Insisting that one or the other doesn't occur is simply factually wrong, there is ample evidence, trivially searchable, that all forms of fraud happen in elections.
The democratic party erroneously thinks one form doesn't happen, and makes arguments like what you made. The republican party doesn't care about the other form, and allows it to happen.
Both parties are at fault here. No one more so than the other.
- benrbray 6y agoI think I should have been more careful with my "revised" statement, as I set up a straw man for my own position. You are absolutely right that both voter fraud and electoral fraud occur. We should take efforts to minimize both kinds. The divisive question is whether VOTER FRAUD or ELECTORAL FRAUD is currently a bigger threat to our government / society. I maintain that it is important to clearly distinguish between voter vs election fraud. As your comments have shown, conflating the two risks confusion. I think the idea that "both sides are the same" is ignorant at best and intentionally misleading at worst. I have so far seen no evidence that voter fraud has significantly impacted the outcome of any state or national elections. There is, however, overwhelming evidence that electoral fraud is widespread, and in most cases enabled by members of the Republican party, either through negligence or malice.
- hpcjoe 6y agoAgain, assigning blame to a single party is simply incorrect. It shows bias. From today[1]. And previous reporting on this identifies the party[2]. Not the GOP. Fraud occurs[3], and it is not only from one particular party or group. The idea is to simply reduce any potential impact from attempts at fraud. We aren't there yet. We need to be in order to have an election that people might accept. I am, however, of the belief that no matter how this November 3rd goes, about 50% of the population will not accept the outcome. Just like in 2016. [1] https://www.foxnews.com/politics/paterson-new-jersey-voter-fraud-new-election-city-council-race https://www.foxnews.com/politics/paterson-new-jersey-voter-f... [2] http://www.shorenewsnetwork.com/2020/06/25/fraud-charges/ http://www.shorenewsnetwork.com/2020/06/25/fraud-charges/ [3] https://www.newsweek.com/top-five-rigged-us-presidential-elections-511765 https://www.newsweek.com/top-five-rigged-us-presidential-ele...