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Dont these issues also apply to the docker-compose alternative? I'm recommending make as "the one tool" to use for all of your teams apps. No matter what app th

Dont these issues also apply to the docker-compose alternative? I'm recommending make as "the one tool" to use for all of your teams apps. No matter what app they work on, everything is setup with `make bootstrap` and everything is run with `make up`. Everything is deployed with `make deploy`. They dont need to understand the _how_, only the _what_.

gravypod 6y ago
No, other tools do not suffer from what makes make complex. Make is "hard" because of a few things: 1. The syntax is very complex 2. It's just a wrapper around shell command execution 3. There's no single standard everyone fully implements If I implemented a makefile then I'd have to make sure it's compatible with MacOS and GNU Make. The syntax for make files and target deps are also very complex "Do I want to use % or $ or @?" Make also implements very few pieces of functionality. It forks out SHELL for most things and because of this you need to have everything your makefile is using installed on your system. If you have a makefile, invariably, someone implements some tool that's super helpful and works.... until it doesn't. It depends on some system configuration or utility that is no longer a dep of something you've manually installed and the makefile breaks. If you use containers for all of your functionality this is no longer an issue because you can vendor base layers of OSs/images and make sure they don't break. You can also test these changes, that could be breaking, without rolling out to other developers. I cannot test if my Makefile will run on a developer's mac if I don't have a mac myself and even then it's a crap shoot (do they have homebrew? is their PATH correct? etc).
- patrick451 6y ago
  > The syntax for make files and target deps are also very complex "Do I want to use % or $ or @?" How is this any more complex than any programming language? Take javascript. Do I want to use =, ==, or ===? > I cannot test if my Makefile will run on a developer's mac if I don't have a mac myself and even then it's a crap shoot (do they have homebrew? is their PATH correct? etc). Containers suffer from these kinds of problems as well. For example, if your ip tables are not set up just so, you get no network access from inside your container.

gravypod 6y ago

No, other tools do not suffer from what makes make complex. Make is "hard" because of a few things: 1. The syntax is very complex 2. It's just a wrapper around shell command execution 3. There's no single standard everyone fully implements If I implemented a makefile then I'd have to make sure it's compatible with MacOS and GNU Make. The syntax for make files and target deps are also very complex "Do I want to use % or $ or @?" Make also implements very few pieces of functionality. It forks out SHELL for most things and because of this you need to have everything your makefile is using installed on your system. If you have a makefile, invariably, someone implements some tool that's super helpful and works.... until it doesn't. It depends on some system configuration or utility that is no longer a dep of something you've manually installed and the makefile breaks. If you use containers for all of your functionality this is no longer an issue because you can vendor base layers of OSs/images and make sure they don't break. You can also test these changes, that could be breaking, without rolling out to other developers. I cannot test if my Makefile will run on a developer's mac if I don't have a mac myself and even then it's a crap shoot (do they have homebrew? is their PATH correct? etc).

patrick451 6y ago
> The syntax for make files and target deps are also very complex "Do I want to use % or $ or @?" How is this any more complex than any programming language? Take javascript. Do I want to use =, ==, or ===? > I cannot test if my Makefile will run on a developer's mac if I don't have a mac myself and even then it's a crap shoot (do they have homebrew? is their PATH correct? etc). Containers suffer from these kinds of problems as well. For example, if your ip tables are not set up just so, you get no network access from inside your container.