3 ms·

It's not really about the traits, though. You're making a category error if you think this is about gender stereotypes at root. It's possible that some people t

by jolux 6y ago

It's not really about the traits, though. You're making a category error if you think this is about gender stereotypes at root. It's possible that some people transition mostly because of gender roles, but for a lot of us it's because our bodies feel wrong on a fundamental level. It's hard to explain exactly what this means but suffice it to say it's unpleasant enough that it makes transition worth it for a lot of trans people. I would say that if you find all of this strange that's a good sign that you're probably not trans and nothing more. You're right that transition is not something that just anyone does, there is an enormous amount of self-sorting that goes on. Also, there's nothing wrong with transitioning and getting psychological help. In fact, I recommend it. Psychologists and psychiatrists these days really shouldn't be anti-transition or anti-trans people existing, the consensus on these things has shifted quite a bit, just like it did back in the 60s and 70s with gay people. >EDIT: isn't something completely broken if some people binarize traits as female and male and accordingly everyone in between as non-binary? I mean, before we categorized people into genders by sex, now we categorize people into gender by their binarized behavior Trans people are likely to be the last people to automatically characterize people based on those traits. To me at least, really what matters is what you tell me your gender is. I think people should have the freedom to choose the gendered existence they most desire, in body and in character. Trans women are definitely not all stereotypically feminine, though this is widely believed. I wear a t-shirt and jeans and have a buzzcut. >Btw: if there's 1 of 100 trans, how come you really know a lot of them? I imagine if they are in the closet, it's hard to get them talking about these things as well! So how do you do it? The internet :). 1/100 is quite a bit in a world with 7 billion people in it. And more and more of us aren't in the closet anymore. Moreover, closeted trans people often want to talk to trans people who aren't closeted, or have transitioned, because they're looking for validation that what they know to be true about themselves is possible and legitimate and many cultural and societal forces tell them it isn't. I also suspect the real prevalence of trans people and gender dysphoria is not well understood. I don't know whether the real number is lower or higher, though.

fock 6y ago
Ok, if I'm making a category error, then, why do we have this transgender debate over the transsexuality-debate (which imo is different, because people there are actively using medicine to change facts about their body, which is not necessary true for any transgender?)? And what makes cis-gender then, except the fact that you are fine to be called he/she? > to choose the gendered existence they most desire so: what is gender then, if it's neither sex, nor stereotypes? Thanks for answering all these questions and having this discussion, while I also (like a lot of people here) sometimes question the wisdom of artifical images which are projected as a role model, I don't grasp the idea of non-transsexual transgender (which, if I'm correct today is a thing in the discussion). Also, while I actually sometimes talk to friends about their feelings, I've not encountered anyone expressing discomfort with their "gender", but I'm obviously not actively searching for that (which you probably do on the internet).
- saltminer 6y ago
  >which imo is different, because people there are actively using medicine to change facts about their body, which is not necessary true for any transgender? Transgender people can get HRT, socially transition, and undergo GCS. The people who use the term "transsexual" to describe themselves today are usually doing so to draw a line in the sand between those who are "trenders" and those who are "true trans". This line in the sand can be identifying as a man or woman and not taking anything else seriously (regardless of HRT and GCS status), demanding rigid gender role conformity, or wanting to exclude those who are unable to afford/access HRT and/or GCS from being trans. If you want to see how deep this rabbit hole goes, google "truscum" and "transmedicalism". The term "transgender" is considered the more appropriate term, and the initial push for it was that "transsexual" sounded like it was a sexual orientation. It is only relatively recently that using "transsexual" became a bit of a political stance within the trans community. > And what makes cis-gender then, except the fact that you are fine to be called he/she? If you are cisgender, you agree with the sex you were assigned at birth. That does not mean you must agree with or conform to most or all of the cultural expectations foisted upon you due to what you were assigned at birth, just that the sex you were assigned at birth seems right and does not clash with your gender identity.[0] There is some debate over whether non-binary individuals are transgender, but given that most definitions of transgender revolve around someone's gender identity being at odds with the sex they were assigned at birth, unless they were pronounced non-binary at birth (which does not happen to my knowledge), they are trans. That said, using the transgender label is an individual decision - trans people who "go stealth" (typically involving moving to a new place and abandoning your old friends so nobody would know you are trans and never telling anyone about your past) would not use the label publicly, but it does not make them not-trans. In addition, many non-binary people view themselves as unworthy of the transgender label or do not use it in order to avoid stigma and invasive questions. This is a personal choice and I do not blame people for not wanting to tell others they are trans, whether they identify firmly as male or female, or somewhere in-between. [0] I want to elaborate on this point - gender identity can really be thought of as the "sex" of your brain. The sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs during the first 2 months of pregnancy, while the sexual differentiation of the brain occurs during the second half of pregnancy. If there are plenty of androgens (testosterone, DHT, etc) in the womb during the first 2 months but few during the second half, you could have a child with masculinized genitals but a feminized brain (a trans woman), and vice-versa for trans men.[1] (I have not found any research related to this and non-binary individuals, unfortunately.) However, an imbalance between these periods does not guarantee a trans child - we do not fully understand the mechanisms at play, but it appears that there is a genetic component,[2] so there is no way to predict if someone will turn out trans or not. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21094885/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21094885/ [2] http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-transsexuality.html http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-t...

by jolux 6y ago

fock 6y ago

Ok, if I'm making a category error, then, why do we have this transgender debate over the transsexuality-debate (which imo is different, because people there are actively using medicine to change facts about their body, which is not necessary true for any transgender?)? And what makes cis-gender then, except the fact that you are fine to be called he/she? > to choose the gendered existence they most desire so: what is gender then, if it's neither sex, nor stereotypes? Thanks for answering all these questions and having this discussion, while I also (like a lot of people here) sometimes question the wisdom of artifical images which are projected as a role model, I don't grasp the idea of non-transsexual transgender (which, if I'm correct today is a thing in the discussion). Also, while I actually sometimes talk to friends about their feelings, I've not encountered anyone expressing discomfort with their "gender", but I'm obviously not actively searching for that (which you probably do on the internet).

saltminer 6y ago
>which imo is different, because people there are actively using medicine to change facts about their body, which is not necessary true for any transgender? Transgender people can get HRT, socially transition, and undergo GCS. The people who use the term "transsexual" to describe themselves today are usually doing so to draw a line in the sand between those who are "trenders" and those who are "true trans". This line in the sand can be identifying as a man or woman and not taking anything else seriously (regardless of HRT and GCS status), demanding rigid gender role conformity, or wanting to exclude those who are unable to afford/access HRT and/or GCS from being trans. If you want to see how deep this rabbit hole goes, google "truscum" and "transmedicalism". The term "transgender" is considered the more appropriate term, and the initial push for it was that "transsexual" sounded like it was a sexual orientation. It is only relatively recently that using "transsexual" became a bit of a political stance within the trans community. > And what makes cis-gender then, except the fact that you are fine to be called he/she? If you are cisgender, you agree with the sex you were assigned at birth. That does not mean you must agree with or conform to most or all of the cultural expectations foisted upon you due to what you were assigned at birth, just that the sex you were assigned at birth seems right and does not clash with your gender identity.[0] There is some debate over whether non-binary individuals are transgender, but given that most definitions of transgender revolve around someone's gender identity being at odds with the sex they were assigned at birth, unless they were pronounced non-binary at birth (which does not happen to my knowledge), they are trans. That said, using the transgender label is an individual decision - trans people who "go stealth" (typically involving moving to a new place and abandoning your old friends so nobody would know you are trans and never telling anyone about your past) would not use the label publicly, but it does not make them not-trans. In addition, many non-binary people view themselves as unworthy of the transgender label or do not use it in order to avoid stigma and invasive questions. This is a personal choice and I do not blame people for not wanting to tell others they are trans, whether they identify firmly as male or female, or somewhere in-between. [0] I want to elaborate on this point - gender identity can really be thought of as the "sex" of your brain. The sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs during the first 2 months of pregnancy, while the sexual differentiation of the brain occurs during the second half of pregnancy. If there are plenty of androgens (testosterone, DHT, etc) in the womb during the first 2 months but few during the second half, you could have a child with masculinized genitals but a feminized brain (a trans woman), and vice-versa for trans men.[1] (I have not found any research related to this and non-binary individuals, unfortunately.) However, an imbalance between these periods does not guarantee a trans child - we do not fully understand the mechanisms at play, but it appears that there is a genetic component,[2] so there is no way to predict if someone will turn out trans or not. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21094885/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21094885/ [2] http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-transsexuality.html http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-t...