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I'd never want electronic voting either, but this myth needs to die. Intimidation can happen with absentee voting too, so it's not a valid concern.

by davisr 6y ago

cochne 6y ago
Does it apply at the same level? I could see some ransomware that says if your vote doesn’t appear on the blockchain you are not getting your files back. Meanwhile to achieve intimidation with absentee voting, wouldn’t you have to check the physical ballot in person?
hannasanarion 6y ago
But with absentee voting, the votes are still counted by hand. That's the part that has to be the most secure. With any paper voting system, votes can be impacted by some criminal scheme, yes, but only one at a time and with great individual effort. You have to blackmail a LOT of people to swing an election. Whereas with an electronic election, one attacker can change millions of votes with a single bit of malware code, with nobody the wiser.
- the_snooze 6y ago
  >But with absentee voting, the votes are still counted by hand. The verification is manual, but the counting probably isn't. At least in California, absentee (mail) ballots are exactly the same ones you get at the polling place. You put them in an unmarked envelope, which you place inside another envelope with your information and signature. The counting center verifies the information on the outer envelope and ensures you didn't already vote elsewhere in-person. If it's good, then the inner (unmarked) envelope is taken out and a machine processes the ballot as if you were in the physical precinct.
  - hannasanarion 6y ago
    Nonetheless, there is a physical paper record of every vote that can be counted by hand, the machine is just for a quick estimate of the count. There are only 2 points of trust in a mail election: the vote itself which could be compromised by blackmail or whatever (low risk because only one vote can be influenced at a time), and the scantron machine (low risk because the ballots can still be counted by hand to verify). But if your vote is just a byte getting added to a database on a server from your personal computer over the internet, there are a hundred high-risk trust points. You have to trust the user, but also the website, the browser, the operating system, the network, the hardware, the server, the software running on the server and everybody who has ever worked on it, the counting software, the people operating the counting software, and a compromise at any single one of these points could change millions of votes without any possibility of detection. In other words, in a scantron election, the legal vote is the paper, the electronics are just convenience. In an internet election, the legal vote is the ephemeral machine-generated bits on a wire, and that's where the problem comes from.
Consultant32452 6y ago
In most elections the number of absentee ballots is so small as to be statistically irrelevant. I'm not even certain absentee ballots are always counted because of this, winners are surely announced and concession speeches are made long before absentee ballots are counted. So whatever security/intimidation issues might be higher in absentee ballots aren't that big of a deal due to the small number of them. That may be changing this election with wide spread/universal mail in balloting.
- the_snooze 6y ago
  > I'm not even certain absentee ballots are always counted because of this This is a misconception. All ballots received according to the laws of the state must be counted before the secretary of state certifies the results. News networks will call an election as soon as they're certain it's gone one way or another. If Trump is up 30% in Wyoming on election night with 500 absentee ballots outstanding, CNN will call it. This doesn't mean Wyoming won't count those ballots. They have to in order to certify the results, which happens a few days after election night. States maintain detailed election results for historical and legal purposes. They don't throw away absentee ballots just because they won't change the outcome. States will, however, toss out absentee ballots that aren't received according to their laws (i.e., some states require those to be received by election day, while others merely require them to be postmarked), as well as those without a verifiable signature on them. This is a really common misconception. Absentee ballots absolutely count as long as they're received correctly. States need accurate vote counts. Absentee and provisional ballots aren't "lesser" ballots. They're just subject to some scrutiny before they're counted.
  - aksss 6y ago
    What you’re saying about certification is true but the comment you’re replying to was making the point that the volume is low enough that most elections can be safely called without having completed the count, e.g. you have 5 absentee ballots to count but one politician is up by 20 - doesn’t matter what the absentee ballots say. So while intimidation with absentee ballots isn’t a factor, that comment was saying the now material volume of mailed in ballots creates a greater risk exposure than we associated with the absentee system.
dang 6y ago
Sorry for offtopicness but could you please email hn@ycombinator.com? I want to send you some repost invites.

I'd never want electronic voting either, but this myth needs to die. Intimidation can happen with absentee voting too, so it's not a valid concern.

by davisr 6y ago

I'd never want electronic voting either, but this myth needs to die. Intimidation can happen with absentee voting too, so it's not a valid concern.

cochne 6y ago

Does it apply at the same level? I could see some ransomware that says if your vote doesn’t appear on the blockchain you are not getting your files back. Meanwhile to achieve intimidation with absentee voting, wouldn’t you have to check the physical ballot in person?

hannasanarion 6y ago

But with absentee voting, the votes are still counted by hand. That's the part that has to be the most secure. With any paper voting system, votes can be impacted by some criminal scheme, yes, but only one at a time and with great individual effort. You have to blackmail a LOT of people to swing an election. Whereas with an electronic election, one attacker can change millions of votes with a single bit of malware code, with nobody the wiser.

the_snooze 6y ago
>But with absentee voting, the votes are still counted by hand. The verification is manual, but the counting probably isn't. At least in California, absentee (mail) ballots are exactly the same ones you get at the polling place. You put them in an unmarked envelope, which you place inside another envelope with your information and signature. The counting center verifies the information on the outer envelope and ensures you didn't already vote elsewhere in-person. If it's good, then the inner (unmarked) envelope is taken out and a machine processes the ballot as if you were in the physical precinct.
- hannasanarion 6y ago
  Nonetheless, there is a physical paper record of every vote that can be counted by hand, the machine is just for a quick estimate of the count. There are only 2 points of trust in a mail election: the vote itself which could be compromised by blackmail or whatever (low risk because only one vote can be influenced at a time), and the scantron machine (low risk because the ballots can still be counted by hand to verify). But if your vote is just a byte getting added to a database on a server from your personal computer over the internet, there are a hundred high-risk trust points. You have to trust the user, but also the website, the browser, the operating system, the network, the hardware, the server, the software running on the server and everybody who has ever worked on it, the counting software, the people operating the counting software, and a compromise at any single one of these points could change millions of votes without any possibility of detection. In other words, in a scantron election, the legal vote is the paper, the electronics are just convenience. In an internet election, the legal vote is the ephemeral machine-generated bits on a wire, and that's where the problem comes from.

Consultant32452 6y ago

In most elections the number of absentee ballots is so small as to be statistically irrelevant. I'm not even certain absentee ballots are always counted because of this, winners are surely announced and concession speeches are made long before absentee ballots are counted. So whatever security/intimidation issues might be higher in absentee ballots aren't that big of a deal due to the small number of them. That may be changing this election with wide spread/universal mail in balloting.

the_snooze 6y ago
> I'm not even certain absentee ballots are always counted because of this This is a misconception. All ballots received according to the laws of the state must be counted before the secretary of state certifies the results. News networks will call an election as soon as they're certain it's gone one way or another. If Trump is up 30% in Wyoming on election night with 500 absentee ballots outstanding, CNN will call it. This doesn't mean Wyoming won't count those ballots. They have to in order to certify the results, which happens a few days after election night. States maintain detailed election results for historical and legal purposes. They don't throw away absentee ballots just because they won't change the outcome. States will, however, toss out absentee ballots that aren't received according to their laws (i.e., some states require those to be received by election day, while others merely require them to be postmarked), as well as those without a verifiable signature on them. This is a really common misconception. Absentee ballots absolutely count as long as they're received correctly. States need accurate vote counts. Absentee and provisional ballots aren't "lesser" ballots. They're just subject to some scrutiny before they're counted.
- aksss 6y ago
  What you’re saying about certification is true but the comment you’re replying to was making the point that the volume is low enough that most elections can be safely called without having completed the count, e.g. you have 5 absentee ballots to count but one politician is up by 20 - doesn’t matter what the absentee ballots say. So while intimidation with absentee ballots isn’t a factor, that comment was saying the now material volume of mailed in ballots creates a greater risk exposure than we associated with the absentee system.

dang 6y ago

Sorry for offtopicness but could you please email hn@ycombinator.com? I want to send you some repost invites.