5 ms·

The issue is not the fact that Google owns the web. It is that the web itself has become decimated to the point where a company like Mozilla does not have a fut

The issue is not the fact that Google owns the web. It is that the web itself has become decimated to the point where a company like Mozilla does not have a future. Facebook, Uber, TikTok, Snapchat, Instagram, Whatsapp, etc. None of them are optimized for Google index. Most top consumer internet applications don't take place in your browser.

alangibson 6y ago
You could make a case that all the 'social' platforms serve a fundamentally different need than the Web. Those are all more about immediate communication of lots of relatively ephemeral, low-information messages. The Web is more suited to publishing more enduring, long form and complete information. Fusing the two never seems to work well. See blog comments for an example.
- cocktailpeanuts 6y ago
  You could make a case that most internet platforms are increasingly social. Think about what would be left if you took away all "social" apps from the internet. Even if we don't go that far, think about non-social online apps that don't use the "web". For example, iCloud, Dropbox, Microsoft Office, Adobe creative cloud, etc. Most users of these apps use native apps instead of a clunky browser.
  - PaulHoule 6y ago
    I dunno. It is what you've been taught. Some people think Microsoft Word is a clunky native app, others that Google Docs is a clunky browser app. Maybe they are both right.
    - cocktailpeanuts 6y ago
      This has nothing to do with my argument. My point is that the reality is a huge chunk of internet usage does not happen inside a browser. Whether it's a good idea or not is irrelevant. The fact that there exists a Microsoft Word powered by the Internet but not inside a browser. And the fact that every cloud powered app on mobile does not use the browser. These are facts.
nqzero 6y ago
This And I'd argue that google's about the only thing propping up the internet. Chromium's a reasonably open platform (certainly more so than internet explorer, which not that long ago looked destined to become the dominant platform), gmail has kept email viable, android is somewhat open (and without it, apple might own that space entirely), etc Every other player that's gotten traction has set up a walled garden
- jacquesm 6y ago
  Gmail is actually a major force in further consolidation of email to a very few number of players. Ever increasing rulesets to be able to send to Gmail from other email servers increase the barrier to entry step-by-step until even the last holdouts will have to pick between a very limited number of parties to host their mail.
  - screamingninja 6y ago
    Not sure what rulesets you're referring to. I understand the spam prevention techniques (DKIM, SPF) but those are all widely accessible open standards. Could you give an example of the barriers to entry that you mentioned?
    - ivanche 6y ago
      Try setting up your own email server and you'll see. There were even a few horror comments on HN from people owning domains for 15+ years with stellar security email servers setup + DKIM + SPF whose emails are going straight into spam.
      - jacquesm 6y ago
        Mine was one of those. Highly frustrating.
  - cocktailpeanuts 6y ago
    Gmail consolidation is happening not because of some evil plan, it's happening because of the economics. In fact it's exactly the same reason why Mozilla is increasingly not sustainable. Email hosting is simply not a lucrative business. That's why it's all run by large portals like Yahoo, Google, Microsoft, etc. which use them not to make money but to collect information about people, and monetize through ads or other indirect methods. Of course, this only becomes profitable at scale, and there are not that many companies at that scale.
cheph 6y ago
> Mozilla does not have a future. I would use Mozilla if the browser was just a little bit less bad. Currently it randomly takes me about 5 seconds to move my cursor in the hackernews input box. That is not Google's fault. Mozilla's future is mostly of their own making.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  It's Firefox, not Mozilla in that context. Confusing, I know. Using Firefox here with a few hundred tabs open, working just fine. I suspect your setup has other problems.
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    Yeah he probably has some plugins causing issues. I have zero problems with firefox other than the occasional "chrome only" web pages and mostly user-agent fakeout extensions take care of that

alangibson 6y ago

You could make a case that all the 'social' platforms serve a fundamentally different need than the Web. Those are all more about immediate communication of lots of relatively ephemeral, low-information messages. The Web is more suited to publishing more enduring, long form and complete information. Fusing the two never seems to work well. See blog comments for an example.

cocktailpeanuts 6y ago
You could make a case that most internet platforms are increasingly social. Think about what would be left if you took away all "social" apps from the internet. Even if we don't go that far, think about non-social online apps that don't use the "web". For example, iCloud, Dropbox, Microsoft Office, Adobe creative cloud, etc. Most users of these apps use native apps instead of a clunky browser.
- PaulHoule 6y ago
  I dunno. It is what you've been taught. Some people think Microsoft Word is a clunky native app, others that Google Docs is a clunky browser app. Maybe they are both right.
  - cocktailpeanuts 6y ago
    This has nothing to do with my argument. My point is that the reality is a huge chunk of internet usage does not happen inside a browser. Whether it's a good idea or not is irrelevant. The fact that there exists a Microsoft Word powered by the Internet but not inside a browser. And the fact that every cloud powered app on mobile does not use the browser. These are facts.

nqzero 6y ago

This And I'd argue that google's about the only thing propping up the internet. Chromium's a reasonably open platform (certainly more so than internet explorer, which not that long ago looked destined to become the dominant platform), gmail has kept email viable, android is somewhat open (and without it, apple might own that space entirely), etc Every other player that's gotten traction has set up a walled garden

jacquesm 6y ago
Gmail is actually a major force in further consolidation of email to a very few number of players. Ever increasing rulesets to be able to send to Gmail from other email servers increase the barrier to entry step-by-step until even the last holdouts will have to pick between a very limited number of parties to host their mail.
- screamingninja 6y ago
  Not sure what rulesets you're referring to. I understand the spam prevention techniques (DKIM, SPF) but those are all widely accessible open standards. Could you give an example of the barriers to entry that you mentioned?
  - ivanche 6y ago
    Try setting up your own email server and you'll see. There were even a few horror comments on HN from people owning domains for 15+ years with stellar security email servers setup + DKIM + SPF whose emails are going straight into spam.
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      Mine was one of those. Highly frustrating.
- cocktailpeanuts 6y ago
  Gmail consolidation is happening not because of some evil plan, it's happening because of the economics. In fact it's exactly the same reason why Mozilla is increasingly not sustainable. Email hosting is simply not a lucrative business. That's why it's all run by large portals like Yahoo, Google, Microsoft, etc. which use them not to make money but to collect information about people, and monetize through ads or other indirect methods. Of course, this only becomes profitable at scale, and there are not that many companies at that scale.

cheph 6y ago

> Mozilla does not have a future. I would use Mozilla if the browser was just a little bit less bad. Currently it randomly takes me about 5 seconds to move my cursor in the hackernews input box. That is not Google's fault. Mozilla's future is mostly of their own making.

jacquesm 6y ago
It's Firefox, not Mozilla in that context. Confusing, I know. Using Firefox here with a few hundred tabs open, working just fine. I suspect your setup has other problems.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  Yeah he probably has some plugins causing issues. I have zero problems with firefox other than the occasional "chrome only" web pages and mostly user-agent fakeout extensions take care of that