4 ms·

(not parent) >Would you call them 'her' to their face, knowing how it could upset them? Maybe, maybe not. What I don't want to do however is keep track of eve

by encom 6y ago

(not parent) >Would you call them 'her' to their face, knowing how it could upset them? Maybe, maybe not. What I don't want to do however is keep track of everyones imaginary genders, and face legal repercussions for "misgendering" them. Here's an interesting search to look through: https://duck.com/?q=illegal+misgendering https://duck.com/?q=illegal+misgendering

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
When they have become what they want, they quite well look male/female so you don't have to remember anything. Indeed, you'd have to make an effort to get it wrong. If they are transitioning they're very forgiving of genuine mistakes. Your links don't support your position - did you read them yourself? "Good News: Law Penalizing “Misgendering” with Hefty Fine and/or Jail Time being Legally Challenged" (california) "Misgendering is not a crime and not a hate-crime, no. However, it can be a hate-crime if done in combination with another criminal offence, which suggests that the offender is motivated by a hatred for transgender people." (UK) "California health care workers who “willfully and repeatedly” decline to use a senior transgender patient's “preferred name or pronouns” could face punishments ranging from a fine to jail time under a newly signed law." (california) so as you see it's mostly about intent. I don't think you actually know any TG people.
- encom 6y ago
  >Your links don't support your position My position is that it's stupid, and I was illustrating that there are forces that want to make it illegal. And they have succeeded in some places. The Canadian Bill C16 is one example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to_amend_the_Canadian_Human_Rights_Act_and_the_Criminal_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to_amend_the_Canadian_H... >I don't think you actually know any TG people. And I think you have no basis for making that assumption. You are wrong.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    > there are forces that want to make it illegal Yep, in the context of a hate crime. Not standalone. Seems reasonable. I don't think you read the link you posted. To quote from it " Speaking for the [Canadian Bar Association], the President, [...] made explicit the protections for transgender people which were already contained in the prohibition on discrimination based on sexual orientation; and did not pose any risk to freedom of expression" So it's about discrimination, and freedom of expression is not affected. Further "Peterson argued that the law would classify the failure to use preferred pronouns of transgender people as hate speech. According to legal experts, including law professors Brenda Cossman of the University of Toronto and Kyle Kirkup of the University of Ottawa, not using preferred pronouns would not meet legal standards for hate speech" So getting him/her wrong is not hate speech, so... problem? What I'm getting from you is anger+fear, and what I'm not getting is why treating TGs decently bother you so much.
    - dang 6y ago
      Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        Tricky for me to understand that, @DanG. There was zero flaming on my side - that I can see - and not much on his, just an opinion I truly can't understand but think I need to. He posted honestly, I posted honestly in response factually and no shouting. So I don't get it.
  - mftrhu 6y ago
    Indeed. There is a whole subreddit dedicated to documenting instances of people being arrested because of the travesty of justice that is Bill C16: check out https://reddit.com/r/ArrestedCanadaBillC16 https://reddit.com/r/ArrestedCanadaBillC16
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      OMG this might or might not be worse than I could have imagined. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
  - dang 6y ago
    Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by encom 6y ago

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago

When they have become what they want, they quite well look male/female so you don't have to remember anything. Indeed, you'd have to make an effort to get it wrong. If they are transitioning they're very forgiving of genuine mistakes. Your links don't support your position - did you read them yourself? "Good News: Law Penalizing “Misgendering” with Hefty Fine and/or Jail Time being Legally Challenged" (california) "Misgendering is not a crime and not a hate-crime, no. However, it can be a hate-crime if done in combination with another criminal offence, which suggests that the offender is motivated by a hatred for transgender people." (UK) "California health care workers who “willfully and repeatedly” decline to use a senior transgender patient's “preferred name or pronouns” could face punishments ranging from a fine to jail time under a newly signed law." (california) so as you see it's mostly about intent. I don't think you actually know any TG people.

encom 6y ago
>Your links don't support your position My position is that it's stupid, and I was illustrating that there are forces that want to make it illegal. And they have succeeded in some places. The Canadian Bill C16 is one example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to_amend_the_Canadian_Human_Rights_Act_and_the_Criminal_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Act_to_amend_the_Canadian_H... >I don't think you actually know any TG people. And I think you have no basis for making that assumption. You are wrong.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  > there are forces that want to make it illegal Yep, in the context of a hate crime. Not standalone. Seems reasonable. I don't think you read the link you posted. To quote from it " Speaking for the [Canadian Bar Association], the President, [...] made explicit the protections for transgender people which were already contained in the prohibition on discrimination based on sexual orientation; and did not pose any risk to freedom of expression" So it's about discrimination, and freedom of expression is not affected. Further "Peterson argued that the law would classify the failure to use preferred pronouns of transgender people as hate speech. According to legal experts, including law professors Brenda Cossman of the University of Toronto and Kyle Kirkup of the University of Ottawa, not using preferred pronouns would not meet legal standards for hate speech" So getting him/her wrong is not hate speech, so... problem? What I'm getting from you is anger+fear, and what I'm not getting is why treating TGs decently bother you so much.
  - dang 6y ago
    Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      Tricky for me to understand that, @DanG. There was zero flaming on my side - that I can see - and not much on his, just an opinion I truly can't understand but think I need to. He posted honestly, I posted honestly in response factually and no shouting. So I don't get it.
- mftrhu 6y ago
  Indeed. There is a whole subreddit dedicated to documenting instances of people being arrested because of the travesty of justice that is Bill C16: check out https://reddit.com/r/ArrestedCanadaBillC16 https://reddit.com/r/ArrestedCanadaBillC16
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    OMG this might or might not be worse than I could have imagined. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html