4 ms·

I see arguments like this a lot, and they usually miss the importance and impact of hormonal transition. I'm trans, and thus in trans circles a lot, and almost

I see arguments like this a lot, and they usually miss the importance and impact of hormonal transition. I'm trans, and thus in trans circles a lot, and almost everyone I know had some high impact mental health issue resolve upon starting hormonal transition, even if those were present before they realized they were trans. These range from generic depression over behavior that gets people autism diagnoses that suddenly resolve to a depersonalization. [1] Even if you want to attribute those to placebo, the effect is so pronounced and long-lastingly positive, it wouldn't really matter if it was. Gender dysphoria is measurable[2], and gender dysphoria severe enough to lead someone to transition seems to be rooted more deeply than just the socially constructed assignments of what constitutes male and female behavior. Of course gender-non-conformance would still be expressed more strongly in such people. What is also positively correlated to transness are conditions that could be classified as intersex, even if we don't generally diagnose them as such because they have no easy to recognize physical impact. We know about some of those, pre-natal exposure to estrogens for instance. And I'm sure there's a lot of factors we're entirely missing. There are a few neurology studies that show deviations that are are usually associated with the other sex in transgender people, even before they can hormonally transition. [1]: https://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/2013/09/that-was-dysphoria-8-signs-and-symptoms-of-indirect-gender-dysphoria/ https://the-orbit.net/zinniajones/2013/09/that-was-dysphoria... [2]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30991464/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30991464/

bsanr2 6y ago
I wonder if studying gender affirmation among cis people wouldn't help to solidify the science behind transitioning and well-being. With presentation of gender being as much of a spectrum as gender itself, it would stand to reason that there are cis individuals who experience dysphoria by way of not physically presenting as as masculine or feminine as they feel themselves to be (waves). Non-clinical avenues are somewhat more open to them in a way that they aren't to trans folk (e.g., diet and exercise), but I wonder if hormonal supplementation for the express purposes of enhancing gender identification (rather than to correct a clinical deficiency or for birth control) could be beneficial. EDIT: The great thing about suggesting that cis people might experience gender dysphoria is that it pisses off the transphobes AND trans folk. Anyone looking for an edgy stand-up routine, have I got a subject for you.
- fxtentacle 6y ago
  Since "gender dysphoria" hasn't been scientifically defined yet, you're free to make up a definition so that everyone has it ;)
  - bsanr2 6y ago
    https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphori...
    - fxtentacle 6y ago
      "Gender dysphoria - as a general descriptive term refers to an individual’s discontent with the assigned gender." That is a very weak definition, if you ask me.
      - burgerboy 6y ago
        Didn't ask you
      - bsanr2 6y ago
        You'll have to take it up with the APA, the authority on psychiatric disorders in the US and the author of that page. As a dead comment stated, nobody asked you.
- sascha_sl 6y ago
  While a lot of trans people would like it to be the case, quantity doesn't really matter past receptor saturation. Most badly adjusted doses are badly adjusted because they're not consistent instead (estradiol has a very short half life). If you have gonads producing your hormones you don't usually have this issue. We do however have cases of gender dysphoria when treating cis people with antiandrogens for prostate cancer, so it seems to be a phenomenon not limited to trans people.
  - 6y ago
fxtentacle 6y ago
I would consider neither [1] nor [2] to be of any scientific merit. === [1] === I find your reference [1] to be incredibly intellectually dishonest: I agree with the initial paragraph that "gender dysphoria" as well as "dysphoria" in general are not well defined terms. Obviously, I was then expecting a definition by the author, but none was given. Instead, the author moves on to use the term as if it was a well-defined scientific thing. The list of symptoms that follows is so overly generic as to be useless in practice: 1. Continual difficulty with simply getting through the day That's called depression. 2. A sense of misalignment, disconnect, or estrangement from your own emotions Usually called borderline/mania 3. A feeling of just going through the motions in everyday life, as if you’re always reading from a script My feeling after a day of reading mathematics papers. 4. A seeming pointlessness to your life, and no sense of any real meaning or ultimate purpose. I've heard that a lot from people who studied languages and then ended up working as a supermarket cashier. 5. Knowing you’re somehow different from everyone else, and wishing you could be normal like them. I believe everyone has these feelings during puberty. 6. A notable escalation in the severity of these symptoms during puberty Since you just described common puberty side-effects in #1 to #5, this is not an independent symptom anymore. 7. Attempting to fix this on your own through various coping mechanisms. Reminds me of guys who are awkward at dating and try to push through by getting drunk. 8. Substantial resolution of these symptoms in a very obvious way upon transitioning, particularly upon initiating HRT That sounds like "try hormone therapy to see how you like it". After reading the article, I had a strong feeling that the author is probably selling related drugs and has a financial incentive to classify everything as trans symptoms. And while the author is describing herself like a researcher in this article, she's calling herself "adult demon anti-cis pro-trans activist" elsewhere and she has made this statement: "I don't see a problem with telling straight guys who are exclusionary of trans women partners that they should try to work through that" Which I find incredibly ignorant and selfish, considering that many men plan to have kids the traditional way and for that goal you necessarily need to exclude trans women partners. === [2] === Your reference [2] appears to be a bit more scientific at first, but they published in the "highly prestigious" journal "Federation of European Neuroscience Societies and John Wiley & Sons Ltd" which allows anyone who is willing to pay the fees to publish practically anything. As such, the article has exactly 2 citations, both of which have shared authors. They defined "gender dysphoria" as "An experience of incongruence between gender identity and birth‐assigned sex", meaning their working definition is based purely on self-reported feelings after the fact and, therefore, unsuitable for any scientific analysis. Plus, the peer review for [2] is online here: https://publons.com/publon/10.1111/EJN.14420/ https://publons.com/publon/10.1111/EJN.14420/ and you can see that their paper was rejected in the first round with the comment: When we think of the manuscript as a whole: is there a clear and proven evidence of a "cerebral signature of gender dysphoria"? Please consider revising. But then it was approved later on by the "co-Editors in Chief, EJN", meaning by the people that get paid from the paper printing fees... That looks like the kind of fake review cycle that I would expect from a pay-to-publish journal. To sum it up, the fact that this uses scientific terminology and is published in a journal doesn't mean anything. It would only have meaning if it was either well-cited or published in a journal with critical peer review.

bsanr2 6y ago

I wonder if studying gender affirmation among cis people wouldn't help to solidify the science behind transitioning and well-being. With presentation of gender being as much of a spectrum as gender itself, it would stand to reason that there are cis individuals who experience dysphoria by way of not physically presenting as as masculine or feminine as they feel themselves to be (waves). Non-clinical avenues are somewhat more open to them in a way that they aren't to trans folk (e.g., diet and exercise), but I wonder if hormonal supplementation for the express purposes of enhancing gender identification (rather than to correct a clinical deficiency or for birth control) could be beneficial. EDIT: The great thing about suggesting that cis people might experience gender dysphoria is that it pisses off the transphobes AND trans folk. Anyone looking for an edgy stand-up routine, have I got a subject for you.

fxtentacle 6y ago
Since "gender dysphoria" hasn't been scientifically defined yet, you're free to make up a definition so that everyone has it ;)
- bsanr2 6y ago
  https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphori...
  - fxtentacle 6y ago
    "Gender dysphoria - as a general descriptive term refers to an individual’s discontent with the assigned gender." That is a very weak definition, if you ask me.
    - burgerboy 6y ago
      Didn't ask you
    - bsanr2 6y ago
      You'll have to take it up with the APA, the authority on psychiatric disorders in the US and the author of that page. As a dead comment stated, nobody asked you.
sascha_sl 6y ago
While a lot of trans people would like it to be the case, quantity doesn't really matter past receptor saturation. Most badly adjusted doses are badly adjusted because they're not consistent instead (estradiol has a very short half life). If you have gonads producing your hormones you don't usually have this issue. We do however have cases of gender dysphoria when treating cis people with antiandrogens for prostate cancer, so it seems to be a phenomenon not limited to trans people.
- 6y ago

fxtentacle 6y ago

I would consider neither [1] nor [2] to be of any scientific merit. === [1] === I find your reference [1] to be incredibly intellectually dishonest: I agree with the initial paragraph that "gender dysphoria" as well as "dysphoria" in general are not well defined terms. Obviously, I was then expecting a definition by the author, but none was given. Instead, the author moves on to use the term as if it was a well-defined scientific thing. The list of symptoms that follows is so overly generic as to be useless in practice: 1. Continual difficulty with simply getting through the day That's called depression. 2. A sense of misalignment, disconnect, or estrangement from your own emotions Usually called borderline/mania 3. A feeling of just going through the motions in everyday life, as if you’re always reading from a script My feeling after a day of reading mathematics papers. 4. A seeming pointlessness to your life, and no sense of any real meaning or ultimate purpose. I've heard that a lot from people who studied languages and then ended up working as a supermarket cashier. 5. Knowing you’re somehow different from everyone else, and wishing you could be normal like them. I believe everyone has these feelings during puberty. 6. A notable escalation in the severity of these symptoms during puberty Since you just described common puberty side-effects in #1 to #5, this is not an independent symptom anymore. 7. Attempting to fix this on your own through various coping mechanisms. Reminds me of guys who are awkward at dating and try to push through by getting drunk. 8. Substantial resolution of these symptoms in a very obvious way upon transitioning, particularly upon initiating HRT That sounds like "try hormone therapy to see how you like it". After reading the article, I had a strong feeling that the author is probably selling related drugs and has a financial incentive to classify everything as trans symptoms. And while the author is describing herself like a researcher in this article, she's calling herself "adult demon anti-cis pro-trans activist" elsewhere and she has made this statement: "I don't see a problem with telling straight guys who are exclusionary of trans women partners that they should try to work through that" Which I find incredibly ignorant and selfish, considering that many men plan to have kids the traditional way and for that goal you necessarily need to exclude trans women partners. === [2] === Your reference [2] appears to be a bit more scientific at first, but they published in the "highly prestigious" journal "Federation of European Neuroscience Societies and John Wiley & Sons Ltd" which allows anyone who is willing to pay the fees to publish practically anything. As such, the article has exactly 2 citations, both of which have shared authors. They defined "gender dysphoria" as "An experience of incongruence between gender identity and birth‐assigned sex", meaning their working definition is based purely on self-reported feelings after the fact and, therefore, unsuitable for any scientific analysis. Plus, the peer review for [2] is online here: https://publons.com/publon/10.1111/EJN.14420/ https://publons.com/publon/10.1111/EJN.14420/ and you can see that their paper was rejected in the first round with the comment: When we think of the manuscript as a whole: is there a clear and proven evidence of a "cerebral signature of gender dysphoria"? Please consider revising. But then it was approved later on by the "co-Editors in Chief, EJN", meaning by the people that get paid from the paper printing fees... That looks like the kind of fake review cycle that I would expect from a pay-to-publish journal. To sum it up, the fact that this uses scientific terminology and is published in a journal doesn't mean anything. It would only have meaning if it was either well-cited or published in a journal with critical peer review.