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Why not simply print a receipt after voting with the vote printed verbatim and a digital token that allows the voter to easily check whether the vote has actual

Why not simply print a receipt after voting with the vote printed verbatim and a digital token that allows the voter to easily check whether the vote has actually been counted correctly. The token could be a hash of some relevant parameters that are easy to check and maybe digitally signed by the voting machine or whatever.

dpflan 6y ago
Indeed, a record of proof of the transaction instills more confidence in the system (i.e. votes aren't just in this "black box") and provides a redundancy in the case of issues with the electronic system.
- Qwertious 6y ago
  If you vote from home, what sort of receipt do you get? A digital receipt for every candidate can't be recorded unless it's mailed in (and if people are all mailing in anyway then it sounds like you're just overcomplicating things), and people keeping a record of their vote at home where they can show others will let people systemically validate blackmail - "show me you voted <candidate> or I'll break your kneecaps". Although to be fair, if you seize someone's mail-in ballot you could force them to write it out under supervision. Other than possible cost savings, the only useful benefit of electronic voting is if it lets people vote from home/vote more conveniently. Requiring a paper backup nullifies that benefit, and making it optional damages the usefulness of having a paper backup in the first place and adds privacy problems.
  - mulmen 6y ago
    Blackmail doesn’t scale. In WA the ballot has a tab you peel off and can track through a webpage. It’s basically the system outlined above but we actually fill out a paper ballot then mail it in. The postage is prepaid. This solves basically all problems and works great. It’s independently verifiable. It’s anonymous. It’s accessible.
    - wtracy 6y ago
      > Blackmail doesn’t scale. If elections in my district are historically won by a 10-20% margin, and my corporation directly employs 20% of the people in the district, then I think I could make blackmail scale just fine.
      - mulmen 6y ago
        I’m not sure I follow. Are you threatening people’s jobs? Do you think you can reliably get away with that? This is the part where it doesn’t scale. You’re taking on an enormous risk to maybe swing a tight election by committing widespread extortion. It’s totally unrealistic and has nothing to do with voting in person, online or by mail. Your threat would apply to all of them.
        wtracy 6y ago
        > Are you threatening people’s jobs? Yes. > Do you think you can reliably get away with that? Robber barons did reliably get away with it throughout the nineteenth century. That's the whole reason that you don't get to take a copy of your ballot home today. > It’s totally unrealistic Well, somebody forgot to tell reality.
        mulmen 6y ago
        > That's the whole reason that you don't get to take a copy of your ballot home today. My ballot gets mailed to my house. I fill it out in my kitchen.
fanf2 6y ago
The point of the secret ballot is to make it very hard to sell votes, because you can’t prove how you voted. (Vote by mail is not a secret ballot.)
- Enginerrrd 6y ago
  How is vote by mail not a secret ballot? I live in CA where we have had mail-in voting for some time. As far as I know, I don't have anyway to prove to someone that I voted a particular way.
  - odyssey7 6y ago
    A scenario where a family or workplace or other organization has everyone fill in their ballot in front of each other and then drop it off in the mail together. “For convenience,” “to make sure everyone gets their vote in.” The difference is there is no designated, guaranteed-private voting booth for the act of voting.
jfk13 6y ago
This really doesn't help, because the average voter will have no understanding of what that "digital token" is or how it can be used to "check" anything. Are we imagining some kind of unique QR-code or similar, that I scan to get a confirmation my vote was recorded? That's pure black-box voodoo... why should I believe that there's any connection between that "check" and the official count?

dpflan 6y ago

Indeed, a record of proof of the transaction instills more confidence in the system (i.e. votes aren't just in this "black box") and provides a redundancy in the case of issues with the electronic system.

Qwertious 6y ago
If you vote from home, what sort of receipt do you get? A digital receipt for every candidate can't be recorded unless it's mailed in (and if people are all mailing in anyway then it sounds like you're just overcomplicating things), and people keeping a record of their vote at home where they can show others will let people systemically validate blackmail - "show me you voted <candidate> or I'll break your kneecaps". Although to be fair, if you seize someone's mail-in ballot you could force them to write it out under supervision. Other than possible cost savings, the only useful benefit of electronic voting is if it lets people vote from home/vote more conveniently. Requiring a paper backup nullifies that benefit, and making it optional damages the usefulness of having a paper backup in the first place and adds privacy problems.
- mulmen 6y ago
  Blackmail doesn’t scale. In WA the ballot has a tab you peel off and can track through a webpage. It’s basically the system outlined above but we actually fill out a paper ballot then mail it in. The postage is prepaid. This solves basically all problems and works great. It’s independently verifiable. It’s anonymous. It’s accessible.
  - wtracy 6y ago
    > Blackmail doesn’t scale. If elections in my district are historically won by a 10-20% margin, and my corporation directly employs 20% of the people in the district, then I think I could make blackmail scale just fine.
    - mulmen 6y ago
      I’m not sure I follow. Are you threatening people’s jobs? Do you think you can reliably get away with that? This is the part where it doesn’t scale. You’re taking on an enormous risk to maybe swing a tight election by committing widespread extortion. It’s totally unrealistic and has nothing to do with voting in person, online or by mail. Your threat would apply to all of them.
      - wtracy 6y ago
        > Are you threatening people’s jobs? Yes. > Do you think you can reliably get away with that? Robber barons did reliably get away with it throughout the nineteenth century. That's the whole reason that you don't get to take a copy of your ballot home today. > It’s totally unrealistic Well, somebody forgot to tell reality.
        mulmen 6y ago
        > That's the whole reason that you don't get to take a copy of your ballot home today. My ballot gets mailed to my house. I fill it out in my kitchen.

fanf2 6y ago

The point of the secret ballot is to make it very hard to sell votes, because you can’t prove how you voted. (Vote by mail is not a secret ballot.)

Enginerrrd 6y ago
How is vote by mail not a secret ballot? I live in CA where we have had mail-in voting for some time. As far as I know, I don't have anyway to prove to someone that I voted a particular way.
- odyssey7 6y ago
  A scenario where a family or workplace or other organization has everyone fill in their ballot in front of each other and then drop it off in the mail together. “For convenience,” “to make sure everyone gets their vote in.” The difference is there is no designated, guaranteed-private voting booth for the act of voting.

jfk13 6y ago

This really doesn't help, because the average voter will have no understanding of what that "digital token" is or how it can be used to "check" anything. Are we imagining some kind of unique QR-code or similar, that I scan to get a confirmation my vote was recorded? That's pure black-box voodoo... why should I believe that there's any connection between that "check" and the official count?