3 ms·

First off: yes, trans tends to be an umbrella term these days. >how are people who still live their cis-lives, happy and don't really plan anything medical tra

by jolux 6y ago

First off: yes, trans tends to be an umbrella term these days. >how are people who still live their cis-lives, happy and don't really plan anything medical trans? Or is trans today just a catch-all phrase for everything a little androgynous? If I understand correctly, you're misinterpreting this graf: >When I go to (back when travel was a thing) places that are less friendly than the coasts and people see the trans flag pin on my bag, I frequently have people come out to me and talk about how they can never transition. The trans people GP is talking about here are absolutely trans, but they don't feel safe transitioning because their local environment is more hostile to trans people overall than the west coast or northeast of the US. I know a lot of trans people like that and "living their cis-lives," "happy," and "don't plan on anything medical" don't even begin to describe their existence. I worry a lot about most of them. Being in the closet as a trans person is not inherently safer and in particular rates of suicide are much higher. >this seems very much like some orthodoxy trying to prescribe their opinion. What's the problem with that language as long as (I assume) people are happy with it? It's a question of respectability and what it means to reclaim something. Some trans people like to use traditionally offensive words to describe themselves, others don't. In general I think it's best that we don't describe others with offensive terms unless they ask for it, even as they become more frequently reclaimed, but I have no problem with whatever labels someone chooses for themselves, and different communities have different norms around these things.

fock 6y ago
So I got that after someone here talked about being nearly trans, because he had no stereotypical feelings? Shouldn't that be normal that your mood changes and you like different things on different days and in different stages of your life? I somehow find it very strange that now people are trying to box "normal" (as in that's how our system is supposed to work) behavior into "trans" - what's the purpose of that? I'm sure it's not helping acceptance from (frankly speaking) "weird" people which apparently can't accept other opinions. If everyone is non-binary to some degree (which seems the conclusion of some herr), why make a category for that and not just treat the psychologically ill who can't accept that? and yes, that was a misinterpretation apparently. However, I am right that transition actually means taking hormones, getting an operation or daily crossdressing? Because if it's not and the people are unhappy, I think they should get psychological help (which might be a stigma itself). Except for the real external features I really doubt that people in the rural US really get to know that you are watching romcoms with your wife and enjoy it? Btw: if there's 1 of 100 trans, how come you really know a lot of them? I imagine if they are in the closet, it's hard to get them talking about these things as well! So how do you do it? EDIT: isn't something completely broken if some people binarize traits as female and male and accordingly everyone in between as non-binary? I mean, before we categorized people into genders by sex, now we categorize people into gender by their binarized behavior.
- jolux 6y ago
  It's not really about the traits, though. You're making a category error if you think this is about gender stereotypes at root. It's possible that some people transition mostly because of gender roles, but for a lot of us it's because our bodies feel wrong on a fundamental level. It's hard to explain exactly what this means but suffice it to say it's unpleasant enough that it makes transition worth it for a lot of trans people. I would say that if you find all of this strange that's a good sign that you're probably not trans and nothing more. You're right that transition is not something that just anyone does, there is an enormous amount of self-sorting that goes on. Also, there's nothing wrong with transitioning and getting psychological help. In fact, I recommend it. Psychologists and psychiatrists these days really shouldn't be anti-transition or anti-trans people existing, the consensus on these things has shifted quite a bit, just like it did back in the 60s and 70s with gay people. >EDIT: isn't something completely broken if some people binarize traits as female and male and accordingly everyone in between as non-binary? I mean, before we categorized people into genders by sex, now we categorize people into gender by their binarized behavior Trans people are likely to be the last people to automatically characterize people based on those traits. To me at least, really what matters is what you tell me your gender is. I think people should have the freedom to choose the gendered existence they most desire, in body and in character. Trans women are definitely not all stereotypically feminine, though this is widely believed. I wear a t-shirt and jeans and have a buzzcut. >Btw: if there's 1 of 100 trans, how come you really know a lot of them? I imagine if they are in the closet, it's hard to get them talking about these things as well! So how do you do it? The internet :). 1/100 is quite a bit in a world with 7 billion people in it. And more and more of us aren't in the closet anymore. Moreover, closeted trans people often want to talk to trans people who aren't closeted, or have transitioned, because they're looking for validation that what they know to be true about themselves is possible and legitimate and many cultural and societal forces tell them it isn't. I also suspect the real prevalence of trans people and gender dysphoria is not well understood. I don't know whether the real number is lower or higher, though.
  - fock 6y ago
    Ok, if I'm making a category error, then, why do we have this transgender debate over the transsexuality-debate (which imo is different, because people there are actively using medicine to change facts about their body, which is not necessary true for any transgender?)? And what makes cis-gender then, except the fact that you are fine to be called he/she? > to choose the gendered existence they most desire so: what is gender then, if it's neither sex, nor stereotypes? Thanks for answering all these questions and having this discussion, while I also (like a lot of people here) sometimes question the wisdom of artifical images which are projected as a role model, I don't grasp the idea of non-transsexual transgender (which, if I'm correct today is a thing in the discussion). Also, while I actually sometimes talk to friends about their feelings, I've not encountered anyone expressing discomfort with their "gender", but I'm obviously not actively searching for that (which you probably do on the internet).

by jolux 6y ago

fock 6y ago

So I got that after someone here talked about being nearly trans, because he had no stereotypical feelings? Shouldn't that be normal that your mood changes and you like different things on different days and in different stages of your life? I somehow find it very strange that now people are trying to box "normal" (as in that's how our system is supposed to work) behavior into "trans" - what's the purpose of that? I'm sure it's not helping acceptance from (frankly speaking) "weird" people which apparently can't accept other opinions. If everyone is non-binary to some degree (which seems the conclusion of some herr), why make a category for that and not just treat the psychologically ill who can't accept that? and yes, that was a misinterpretation apparently. However, I am right that transition actually means taking hormones, getting an operation or daily crossdressing? Because if it's not and the people are unhappy, I think they should get psychological help (which might be a stigma itself). Except for the real external features I really doubt that people in the rural US really get to know that you are watching romcoms with your wife and enjoy it? Btw: if there's 1 of 100 trans, how come you really know a lot of them? I imagine if they are in the closet, it's hard to get them talking about these things as well! So how do you do it? EDIT: isn't something completely broken if some people binarize traits as female and male and accordingly everyone in between as non-binary? I mean, before we categorized people into genders by sex, now we categorize people into gender by their binarized behavior.

jolux 6y ago
It's not really about the traits, though. You're making a category error if you think this is about gender stereotypes at root. It's possible that some people transition mostly because of gender roles, but for a lot of us it's because our bodies feel wrong on a fundamental level. It's hard to explain exactly what this means but suffice it to say it's unpleasant enough that it makes transition worth it for a lot of trans people. I would say that if you find all of this strange that's a good sign that you're probably not trans and nothing more. You're right that transition is not something that just anyone does, there is an enormous amount of self-sorting that goes on. Also, there's nothing wrong with transitioning and getting psychological help. In fact, I recommend it. Psychologists and psychiatrists these days really shouldn't be anti-transition or anti-trans people existing, the consensus on these things has shifted quite a bit, just like it did back in the 60s and 70s with gay people. >EDIT: isn't something completely broken if some people binarize traits as female and male and accordingly everyone in between as non-binary? I mean, before we categorized people into genders by sex, now we categorize people into gender by their binarized behavior Trans people are likely to be the last people to automatically characterize people based on those traits. To me at least, really what matters is what you tell me your gender is. I think people should have the freedom to choose the gendered existence they most desire, in body and in character. Trans women are definitely not all stereotypically feminine, though this is widely believed. I wear a t-shirt and jeans and have a buzzcut. >Btw: if there's 1 of 100 trans, how come you really know a lot of them? I imagine if they are in the closet, it's hard to get them talking about these things as well! So how do you do it? The internet :). 1/100 is quite a bit in a world with 7 billion people in it. And more and more of us aren't in the closet anymore. Moreover, closeted trans people often want to talk to trans people who aren't closeted, or have transitioned, because they're looking for validation that what they know to be true about themselves is possible and legitimate and many cultural and societal forces tell them it isn't. I also suspect the real prevalence of trans people and gender dysphoria is not well understood. I don't know whether the real number is lower or higher, though.
- fock 6y ago
  Ok, if I'm making a category error, then, why do we have this transgender debate over the transsexuality-debate (which imo is different, because people there are actively using medicine to change facts about their body, which is not necessary true for any transgender?)? And what makes cis-gender then, except the fact that you are fine to be called he/she? > to choose the gendered existence they most desire so: what is gender then, if it's neither sex, nor stereotypes? Thanks for answering all these questions and having this discussion, while I also (like a lot of people here) sometimes question the wisdom of artifical images which are projected as a role model, I don't grasp the idea of non-transsexual transgender (which, if I'm correct today is a thing in the discussion). Also, while I actually sometimes talk to friends about their feelings, I've not encountered anyone expressing discomfort with their "gender", but I'm obviously not actively searching for that (which you probably do on the internet).