4 ms·

Is this "war for talent" local to the Bay Area? I departed the Bay Area ten years ago due to lack of affordable housing, but I'm genuinely curious if a strong d

Is this "war for talent" local to the Bay Area? I departed the Bay Area ten years ago due to lack of affordable housing, but I'm genuinely curious if a strong developer job market exists anywhere else (I haven't found it where I am now).

bartonfink 16y ago
Things aren't so bad in Denver where I live.
trorer 16y ago
NYC seems to be a hot area as well - http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2011/03/the-war-for-talent.html http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2011/03/the-war-for-talent.html
consultutah 16y ago
Even little old Provo, UT is getting competitive. No lambos or anything like that, but finding good people is hard.
dstein 16y ago
That brings up a good related question: does the average SV tech salary afford you a decent quality of life? What's the point of a 6 figure starting salary if you can't afford a house and need to commute for an hour just to scrape by?
- rdouble 16y ago
  If you are young or single and dont mind renting it is pretty good. I've done the math numerous times and always come out ahead financially with jobs in the bay area. If you have kids and/or feel the need to buy a house it is probably an entirely different story.
- ChuckMcM 16y ago
  So you can buy a house in the south bay for $600K, using that as a baseline and a 6% Mortgage you're talking $3,500 house payment which is 60% -> 40% of your take home pay vs 100K -> 150K salary. Leaving you 2K -> 5k / month for other stuff. (car/insurance/phone/cable/utilities/food/etc). 'Average' salary for tech workers is $110K [1] so can you live on $2K/month? [1] http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-01-20/business/17829511_1_silicon-valley-online-survey-average-salary http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-01-20/business/17829511_1_si...
  - btcoal 16y ago
    Way to completely forget about taxes. Also, if hackers were 1/10 as unionized as teachers or other public sector employees OR GM employees the median salary would be double that.
    - ChuckMcM 16y ago
      Actually I included taxes, my pass on it was take base 65% of base pay as 'take home' pay and start from there. (I included both state and federal and no dependents as my guess). Dual engineer couples clearly with no kids are in a better spot.
unfug 16y ago
I'm in Louisville and we have had a hell of a time trying to hire quality developers. The pool of quality talent here is much smaller than the demand.
- bugsy 16y ago
  Google-stalking you just now, it looks like you work at a place called ignew which has seven employees and annual revenue of $1 million. The company site doesn't even have job listings though. This is a problem. In a search I found a single job listing for your company on the web for an iPhone+Android developer. This was on a set of sites under something called MyCareerNetwork.com, which I had never heard of before as a job board. Checking for jobs within 100 miles of Louisville on Joel's board, where many microsoft developers hang out and which is much more well known, there are 0 search results anywhere near your city so I know you are not currently advertising there. If I've guessed correctly about where you work, then you guys should probably at least advertise in known locations if you are really having problems finding people. I would assume of course that since you can't find anyone locally you are doing the basic hygiene issues such as offering good packages, full relocation, and paying for interview expenses. But the one ad I found specifically says you won't pay relocation. This sort of thing is a huge red flag. So, you say you are having trouble finding people. It doesn't seem to be a problem with the market though based on my brief investigation but is a problem with not trying hard and not providing even the minimal incentive necessary. You should be aware that iPhone and Android skills are both quite hot right now and developers that are expert in both are extremely rare and command a premium. You should be looking at paying full relocation and salary in the $250k range. That's the market.
rdouble 16y ago
The only other place is NYC. Other locales have spokespeople who talk about how they are desperate for programmers and how great it would be to work there. Then you find out the reality and it's 50k top salary programming tps reports in an office park in the suburbs.
- blahblahblah 16y ago
  I've always been somewhat puzzled as to why NYC is the software development hub that it is. It's easy to get why the Bay area is such a powerful draw for developers. It's the one place in the continental U.S. where the climate is perpetually perfect, so it's only natural that people want to live there and it's inevitable that people with rare and valuable skills that can command high salaries will congregate there. It's not as clear to me what the draw is for NYC since the weather there is as bad or worse than Chicago, Detroit, Minneapolis, or Milwaukee and the cost of living is higher than those Midwestern cities. It seems like Boston should be a bigger software hub than NYC just on the basis of the proximity of MIT and Harvard and the intellectual community that fosters. On the basis of desirable climate (and astonishing natural beauty), it seems like Honolulu ought to be a major software hub, but it isn't. What's NYC's secret of success as a software hub?
  - dot 16y ago
    money. lots of money.
  - aaronblohowiak 16y ago
    Huge population (ESP including commuters), access to capital, "cool.".
    - colinyoung 16y ago
      Mainly because of "cool".
  - rdouble 16y ago
    NYC is not a software development hub. However, there are a lot of programming jobs there because media, finance, fashion and other "New York" industries all need programmers. These industries all have a lot of money so salaries for programmers are good.
spamizbad 16y ago
It's "strong" here in Chicago, although employers aren't anywhere near as generous as they are in the Bay Area. My friends tell me it's pretty strong in Austin, TX too.
rickd 16y ago
I wouldn't say there's anything resembling a "war" out here (I'm in Denver). But I will say that my employer hasn't been able to find ANY quality devs locally. While the job scene here is tiny, there's still a lot of demand. Our last 2 hires have been from out of state. Also, you get to live in the mountains...

bartonfink 16y ago

Things aren't so bad in Denver where I live.

trorer 16y ago

NYC seems to be a hot area as well - http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2011/03/the-war-for-talent.html http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2011/03/the-war-for-talent.html

consultutah 16y ago

Even little old Provo, UT is getting competitive. No lambos or anything like that, but finding good people is hard.

dstein 16y ago

That brings up a good related question: does the average SV tech salary afford you a decent quality of life? What's the point of a 6 figure starting salary if you can't afford a house and need to commute for an hour just to scrape by?

rdouble 16y ago
If you are young or single and dont mind renting it is pretty good. I've done the math numerous times and always come out ahead financially with jobs in the bay area. If you have kids and/or feel the need to buy a house it is probably an entirely different story.
ChuckMcM 16y ago
So you can buy a house in the south bay for $600K, using that as a baseline and a 6% Mortgage you're talking $3,500 house payment which is 60% -> 40% of your take home pay vs 100K -> 150K salary. Leaving you 2K -> 5k / month for other stuff. (car/insurance/phone/cable/utilities/food/etc). 'Average' salary for tech workers is $110K [1] so can you live on $2K/month? [1] http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-01-20/business/17829511_1_silicon-valley-online-survey-average-salary http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-01-20/business/17829511_1_si...
- btcoal 16y ago
  Way to completely forget about taxes. Also, if hackers were 1/10 as unionized as teachers or other public sector employees OR GM employees the median salary would be double that.
  - ChuckMcM 16y ago
    Actually I included taxes, my pass on it was take base 65% of base pay as 'take home' pay and start from there. (I included both state and federal and no dependents as my guess). Dual engineer couples clearly with no kids are in a better spot.

unfug 16y ago

I'm in Louisville and we have had a hell of a time trying to hire quality developers. The pool of quality talent here is much smaller than the demand.

bugsy 16y ago
Google-stalking you just now, it looks like you work at a place called ignew which has seven employees and annual revenue of $1 million. The company site doesn't even have job listings though. This is a problem. In a search I found a single job listing for your company on the web for an iPhone+Android developer. This was on a set of sites under something called MyCareerNetwork.com, which I had never heard of before as a job board. Checking for jobs within 100 miles of Louisville on Joel's board, where many microsoft developers hang out and which is much more well known, there are 0 search results anywhere near your city so I know you are not currently advertising there. If I've guessed correctly about where you work, then you guys should probably at least advertise in known locations if you are really having problems finding people. I would assume of course that since you can't find anyone locally you are doing the basic hygiene issues such as offering good packages, full relocation, and paying for interview expenses. But the one ad I found specifically says you won't pay relocation. This sort of thing is a huge red flag. So, you say you are having trouble finding people. It doesn't seem to be a problem with the market though based on my brief investigation but is a problem with not trying hard and not providing even the minimal incentive necessary. You should be aware that iPhone and Android skills are both quite hot right now and developers that are expert in both are extremely rare and command a premium. You should be looking at paying full relocation and salary in the $250k range. That's the market.

rdouble 16y ago

The only other place is NYC. Other locales have spokespeople who talk about how they are desperate for programmers and how great it would be to work there. Then you find out the reality and it's 50k top salary programming tps reports in an office park in the suburbs.

blahblahblah 16y ago
I've always been somewhat puzzled as to why NYC is the software development hub that it is. It's easy to get why the Bay area is such a powerful draw for developers. It's the one place in the continental U.S. where the climate is perpetually perfect, so it's only natural that people want to live there and it's inevitable that people with rare and valuable skills that can command high salaries will congregate there. It's not as clear to me what the draw is for NYC since the weather there is as bad or worse than Chicago, Detroit, Minneapolis, or Milwaukee and the cost of living is higher than those Midwestern cities. It seems like Boston should be a bigger software hub than NYC just on the basis of the proximity of MIT and Harvard and the intellectual community that fosters. On the basis of desirable climate (and astonishing natural beauty), it seems like Honolulu ought to be a major software hub, but it isn't. What's NYC's secret of success as a software hub?
- dot 16y ago
  money. lots of money.
- aaronblohowiak 16y ago
  Huge population (ESP including commuters), access to capital, "cool.".
  - colinyoung 16y ago
    Mainly because of "cool".
- rdouble 16y ago
  NYC is not a software development hub. However, there are a lot of programming jobs there because media, finance, fashion and other "New York" industries all need programmers. These industries all have a lot of money so salaries for programmers are good.

spamizbad 16y ago

It's "strong" here in Chicago, although employers aren't anywhere near as generous as they are in the Bay Area. My friends tell me it's pretty strong in Austin, TX too.

rickd 16y ago

I wouldn't say there's anything resembling a "war" out here (I'm in Denver). But I will say that my employer hasn't been able to find ANY quality devs locally. While the job scene here is tiny, there's still a lot of demand. Our last 2 hires have been from out of state. Also, you get to live in the mountains...