6 ms·

See, this is an exercise in deliberate confusion. If someone said I was female, of course I would contradict them if it was warranted. My male characteristics a

See, this is an exercise in deliberate confusion. If someone said I was female, of course I would contradict them if it was warranted. My male characteristics are objectively verifiable, up to and including having sired children rather than having given birth to them. My identity has nothing to do with any of this. And for most people, “man” and “male” are synonyms. This is why people always express confusion about what it means to “identify” one way or the other. Identity is irrelevant to reproductive role, and sex is about reproduction, and gender is about sex.

ceejayoz 6y ago
> And for most people, “man” and “male” are synonyms. OK. If you call someone gay in the 1800s, it'll probably not mean the same thing as doing it today. Terms change; distinctions between similar terms get made as they're needed. > Identity is irrelevant to reproductive role, and sex is about reproduction, and gender is about sex. There's several bald assertions in there. I'm infertile, so "sex is about reproduction" makes me chuckle a bit, for example.
- empthought 6y ago
  > Terms change; distinctions between similar terms get made as they’re needed. And the distinction among “man,” “woman,” and “non-binary” without referencing sex is explained... how exactly? > I’m infertile, so “sex is about reproduction” makes me chuckle a bit, for example. I am now infertile too; doesn’t change the fact that I know which one of only two kinds of gametes (“sex” cells) my body could produce.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    > And the distinction among “man,” “woman,” and “non-binary” without referencing sex is explained... how exactly? No one said they're not related concepts. Just that they're not the same. The term "butch", for example, tends to describe a female with more manly outward presentation, where "manly" describes "characteristics generally associated by society with males". Short hair isn't an inherently male thing; it's frequently considered a man thing, though. > I am now infertile too; doesn’t change the fact that I know which one of only two kinds of gametes (“sex” cells) my body could produce. I don't produce gametes of either kind. Am I genderless and sexless?
    - empthought 6y ago
      are leg amputees no longer members of a bipedal species? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        But that's the point, isn't it? "Sex is about reproduction" is as silly as "people who lose their legs aren't humans", because both are clearly untrue.
        empthought 6y ago
        Yes, people who lose their ability to walk are still human, and people who lose their ability to produce sperm are still male.
        ceejayoz 6y ago
        What is the "correct" gender for an intersex person, or someone born without genitalia, or someone with 45,X/46,XY mosaicism?
        empthought 6y ago
        Like all genders, I would ask them what is “correct.” If you’re asking about _sex_, however... in the case of intersex conditions, they arise from a disorder of sexual development which by definition arises by diverging from the typical developmental pathway of one sex or the other. Much the same as someone with a much later and artificial divergence (e.g. hysterectomy), this sex is still their sex despite their intersex condition. Being born “without genitalia” is still going to be one of these conditions, or the result of some other unspecified trauma or non-sexual-development disorder. They would still be either one sex or the other. Mosaicism is an interesting case. It would depend on which cells were activating sexual development.
        ceejayoz 6y ago
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    > And the distinction among “man,” “woman,” and “non-binary” without referencing sex is explained... how exactly? It's the difference between "maleness" and "manliness". Those words are clearly related, but they mean different things. See also: "femaleness" vs. "feminine". The latter term in either case describes cultural behaviors, clothing, accepted roles, and a whole bunch of other stuff that isn't the same as their sex. Someone can be very "manly" independent of whether they have XY chromosomes, for instance. I find it useful to be able to describe the cultural elements as one's gender separately from what organs or genes they have under the hood.
    - empthought 6y ago
      See, I view this as a system of oppression. “Manly” characteristics are those that are societally praiseworthy for males but considered negative for females, and “womanly” the reverse. I actively seek to avoid that game, as it is untenable in a just society.
      - Pfhreak 6y ago
        I think a lot of trans/nonbinary people would agree with you. :D
        empthought 6y ago
        I think a lot of people of any identity would agree with me... but are we outnumbered by those who are rigorously inspecting what toys a four-year-old is playing with, as a lens towards gauging their future conformity to one traditional gender role or the other?
        joshuamorton 6y ago
        The deconstruction of gender norms is relatively common among gender-progressive people. You seem to be confusing inspecting toys for conformity and inspecting systems that encourage (or require) conformity. And it's much easier to attack or be concerned about straw-positions than actual ones. It's not problematic for someone to play with toys, or do things, stereotypical to their gender. It's a problem when they are encouraged (tacitly or not) or forced to stick within a predefined scope.
davmar 6y ago
it's only confusing because you're not aware of the difference between sex and gender. take a look at this article i found from a quick google: https://www.healthline.com/health/sex-vs-gender#gender https://www.healthline.com/health/sex-vs-gender#gender
- empthought 6y ago
  Oh, I’m well aware. https://sexandgenderintro.com/ https://sexandgenderintro.com/
DanBC 6y ago
> Identity is irrelevant to reproductive role, and sex is about reproduction, and gender is about sex. Every part of this is wrong. First, let's look at sex. You've said sex is tied to reproduction (as an aside, this feels a bit cruel to all the infertile people out there) but that's wrong. https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html > Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex. You've then said that gender is tied to sex, but that's only true in some countries at this point in history, and it mostly stems from Christian colonialists imposing their view (often using violence to do so) across the world. https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html > Gender, typically described in terms of masculinity and femininity, is a social construction that varies across different cultures and over time. (6) There are a number of cultures, for example, in which greater gender diversity exists and sex and gender are not always neatly divided along binary lines such as male and female or homosexual and heterosexual. The Berdache in North America, the fa’afafine (Samoan for “the way of a woman”) in the Pacific, and the kathoey in Thailand are all examples of different gender categories that differ from the traditional Western division of people into males and females. Further, among certain North American native communities, gender is seen more in terms of a continuum than categories, with special acknowledgement of “two-spirited” people who encompass both masculine and feminine qualities and characteristics. It is apparent, then, that different cultures have taken different approaches to creating gender distinctions, with more or less recognition of fluidity and complexity of gender. https://gal-dem.com/black-trans-lives-matter-we-cant-let-the-government-bury-its-assault-on-trans-rights-amid-protests-and-a-racist-pandemic/ https://gal-dem.com/black-trans-lives-matter-we-cant-let-the... > There is a particular, deep-rooted racist violence in the UK iteration of transphobia. The invention and export of the concept of a rigid and oppressive gender binary was used as a device of subjugation throughout the British empire during colonialism. This included the attempted eradication of ancient and deeply spiritual understandings and lived realities of gender fluidity, including among two-spirit people in indigenous North American cultures; fa’afafine people in Samoa; nat kadaws in Burma, and hijras in India, who were criminalised during British colonial rule by Section 377 – a law used after a rebellion to “reassert colonial authority”. You've said that identity is irrelevant to reproductive role. That's wrong, which is why there are trans-fathers who give birth. https://mana.org/healthcare-policy/use-of-inclusive-language https://mana.org/healthcare-policy/use-of-inclusive-language > The signatures below indicate affirmation and respect for people of all genders; full agreement regarding the use of gender inclusive language in the MANA Core Competencies and in all documents regarding the profession of midwifery and provision of midwifery care; and the welcoming of transgender, genderqueer and intersex people into safe, culturally sensitive, shame-free reproductive health care. We do not refute the “life-giving power in female biology.” Rather, we support a larger vision that includes the provision of midwifery care to all pregnant and birthing people. You may want to read this: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07238-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07238-8

ceejayoz 6y ago

> And for most people, “man” and “male” are synonyms. OK. If you call someone gay in the 1800s, it'll probably not mean the same thing as doing it today. Terms change; distinctions between similar terms get made as they're needed. > Identity is irrelevant to reproductive role, and sex is about reproduction, and gender is about sex. There's several bald assertions in there. I'm infertile, so "sex is about reproduction" makes me chuckle a bit, for example.

empthought 6y ago
> Terms change; distinctions between similar terms get made as they’re needed. And the distinction among “man,” “woman,” and “non-binary” without referencing sex is explained... how exactly? > I’m infertile, so “sex is about reproduction” makes me chuckle a bit, for example. I am now infertile too; doesn’t change the fact that I know which one of only two kinds of gametes (“sex” cells) my body could produce.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  > And the distinction among “man,” “woman,” and “non-binary” without referencing sex is explained... how exactly? No one said they're not related concepts. Just that they're not the same. The term "butch", for example, tends to describe a female with more manly outward presentation, where "manly" describes "characteristics generally associated by society with males". Short hair isn't an inherently male thing; it's frequently considered a man thing, though. > I am now infertile too; doesn’t change the fact that I know which one of only two kinds of gametes (“sex” cells) my body could produce. I don't produce gametes of either kind. Am I genderless and sexless?
  - empthought 6y ago
    are leg amputees no longer members of a bipedal species? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      But that's the point, isn't it? "Sex is about reproduction" is as silly as "people who lose their legs aren't humans", because both are clearly untrue.
      - empthought 6y ago
        Yes, people who lose their ability to walk are still human, and people who lose their ability to produce sperm are still male.
        ceejayoz 6y ago
        What is the "correct" gender for an intersex person, or someone born without genitalia, or someone with 45,X/46,XY mosaicism?
        empthought 6y ago
        Like all genders, I would ask them what is “correct.” If you’re asking about _sex_, however... in the case of intersex conditions, they arise from a disorder of sexual development which by definition arises by diverging from the typical developmental pathway of one sex or the other. Much the same as someone with a much later and artificial divergence (e.g. hysterectomy), this sex is still their sex despite their intersex condition. Being born “without genitalia” is still going to be one of these conditions, or the result of some other unspecified trauma or non-sexual-development disorder. They would still be either one sex or the other. Mosaicism is an interesting case. It would depend on which cells were activating sexual development.
        ceejayoz 6y ago
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  > And the distinction among “man,” “woman,” and “non-binary” without referencing sex is explained... how exactly? It's the difference between "maleness" and "manliness". Those words are clearly related, but they mean different things. See also: "femaleness" vs. "feminine". The latter term in either case describes cultural behaviors, clothing, accepted roles, and a whole bunch of other stuff that isn't the same as their sex. Someone can be very "manly" independent of whether they have XY chromosomes, for instance. I find it useful to be able to describe the cultural elements as one's gender separately from what organs or genes they have under the hood.
  - empthought 6y ago
    See, I view this as a system of oppression. “Manly” characteristics are those that are societally praiseworthy for males but considered negative for females, and “womanly” the reverse. I actively seek to avoid that game, as it is untenable in a just society.
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      I think a lot of trans/nonbinary people would agree with you. :D
      - empthought 6y ago
        I think a lot of people of any identity would agree with me... but are we outnumbered by those who are rigorously inspecting what toys a four-year-old is playing with, as a lens towards gauging their future conformity to one traditional gender role or the other?
        joshuamorton 6y ago
        The deconstruction of gender norms is relatively common among gender-progressive people. You seem to be confusing inspecting toys for conformity and inspecting systems that encourage (or require) conformity. And it's much easier to attack or be concerned about straw-positions than actual ones. It's not problematic for someone to play with toys, or do things, stereotypical to their gender. It's a problem when they are encouraged (tacitly or not) or forced to stick within a predefined scope.

davmar 6y ago

it's only confusing because you're not aware of the difference between sex and gender. take a look at this article i found from a quick google: https://www.healthline.com/health/sex-vs-gender#gender https://www.healthline.com/health/sex-vs-gender#gender

empthought 6y ago
Oh, I’m well aware. https://sexandgenderintro.com/ https://sexandgenderintro.com/

DanBC 6y ago

> Identity is irrelevant to reproductive role, and sex is about reproduction, and gender is about sex. Every part of this is wrong. First, let's look at sex. You've said sex is tied to reproduction (as an aside, this feels a bit cruel to all the infertile people out there) but that's wrong. https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html > Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex. You've then said that gender is tied to sex, but that's only true in some countries at this point in history, and it mostly stems from Christian colonialists imposing their view (often using violence to do so) across the world. https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html > Gender, typically described in terms of masculinity and femininity, is a social construction that varies across different cultures and over time. (6) There are a number of cultures, for example, in which greater gender diversity exists and sex and gender are not always neatly divided along binary lines such as male and female or homosexual and heterosexual. The Berdache in North America, the fa’afafine (Samoan for “the way of a woman”) in the Pacific, and the kathoey in Thailand are all examples of different gender categories that differ from the traditional Western division of people into males and females. Further, among certain North American native communities, gender is seen more in terms of a continuum than categories, with special acknowledgement of “two-spirited” people who encompass both masculine and feminine qualities and characteristics. It is apparent, then, that different cultures have taken different approaches to creating gender distinctions, with more or less recognition of fluidity and complexity of gender. https://gal-dem.com/black-trans-lives-matter-we-cant-let-the-government-bury-its-assault-on-trans-rights-amid-protests-and-a-racist-pandemic/ https://gal-dem.com/black-trans-lives-matter-we-cant-let-the... > There is a particular, deep-rooted racist violence in the UK iteration of transphobia. The invention and export of the concept of a rigid and oppressive gender binary was used as a device of subjugation throughout the British empire during colonialism. This included the attempted eradication of ancient and deeply spiritual understandings and lived realities of gender fluidity, including among two-spirit people in indigenous North American cultures; fa’afafine people in Samoa; nat kadaws in Burma, and hijras in India, who were criminalised during British colonial rule by Section 377 – a law used after a rebellion to “reassert colonial authority”. You've said that identity is irrelevant to reproductive role. That's wrong, which is why there are trans-fathers who give birth. https://mana.org/healthcare-policy/use-of-inclusive-language https://mana.org/healthcare-policy/use-of-inclusive-language > The signatures below indicate affirmation and respect for people of all genders; full agreement regarding the use of gender inclusive language in the MANA Core Competencies and in all documents regarding the profession of midwifery and provision of midwifery care; and the welcoming of transgender, genderqueer and intersex people into safe, culturally sensitive, shame-free reproductive health care. We do not refute the “life-giving power in female biology.” Rather, we support a larger vision that includes the provision of midwifery care to all pregnant and birthing people. You may want to read this: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07238-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07238-8