6 ms·

so could you produce some numbers about transitions? because frankly this discussion (just as the more street-oriented fraction of BLM...) seems driven by a ver

by fock 6y ago

so could you produce some numbers about transitions? because frankly this discussion (just as the more street-oriented fraction of BLM...) seems driven by a very vocal but ultimately minuscule number of people. And if now in some avantgarde-circles (which never were related to the majority of people and also today generally have their very own orthodoxy... ) trans is en vogue, I doubt that this is the mass phenomenon you think it is.

valenciarose 6y ago
It’s not a mass phenomenon. Neither is Autism. Fewer people are trans than are gay, but nobody really knows. At the bottom end it’s 0.3%-0.6% of the population, but that’s only people who are out. If you survey people in their low 20s, it’s higher. We’re a little less common than redheads in all likelihood. Gay people in the early 80s knew there were a lot more gay people than straight people saw, but they had no idea what the true numbers were. It’s like that. Most of the trans people I know aren’t remotely avant-garde. I know a bunch of suburban women in monogamous relationships with their spouses or partners. I know a couple of suburban trans guys who are still married to the men they married before they figured it out, one of them with kids. I know several trans guys in health care. I do know a few trans people who are artist and writer types and are more flamboyant. The first trans woman I met worked at the same Wall Street brokerage I did and was very quiet. When I go to (back when travel was a thing) places that are less friendly than the coasts and people see the trans flag pin on my bag, I frequently have people come out to me and talk about how they can never transition. There is really no orthodoxy beyond believe people about their gender. Trans people are very different from each other and their experience of being trans varies wildly. There’s some agreement around language and tropes that seem to provoke violence towards us, but many trans people use language to describe themselves that other trans people would be offended by. But that’s true of gay people too.
- fock 6y ago
  how are people who still live their cis-lives, happy and don't really plan anything medical trans? Or is trans today just a catch-all phrase for everything a little androgynous? > but many trans people use language to describe themselves that other trans people would be offended by. this seems very much like some orthodoxy trying to prescribe their opinion. What's the problem with that language as long as (I assume) people are happy with it?
  - jolux 6y ago
    First off: yes, trans tends to be an umbrella term these days. >how are people who still live their cis-lives, happy and don't really plan anything medical trans? Or is trans today just a catch-all phrase for everything a little androgynous? If I understand correctly, you're misinterpreting this graf: >When I go to (back when travel was a thing) places that are less friendly than the coasts and people see the trans flag pin on my bag, I frequently have people come out to me and talk about how they can never transition. The trans people GP is talking about here are absolutely trans, but they don't feel safe transitioning because their local environment is more hostile to trans people overall than the west coast or northeast of the US. I know a lot of trans people like that and "living their cis-lives," "happy," and "don't plan on anything medical" don't even begin to describe their existence. I worry a lot about most of them. Being in the closet as a trans person is not inherently safer and in particular rates of suicide are much higher. >this seems very much like some orthodoxy trying to prescribe their opinion. What's the problem with that language as long as (I assume) people are happy with it? It's a question of respectability and what it means to reclaim something. Some trans people like to use traditionally offensive words to describe themselves, others don't. In general I think it's best that we don't describe others with offensive terms unless they ask for it, even as they become more frequently reclaimed, but I have no problem with whatever labels someone chooses for themselves, and different communities have different norms around these things.
    - fock 6y ago
      So I got that after someone here talked about being nearly trans, because he had no stereotypical feelings? Shouldn't that be normal that your mood changes and you like different things on different days and in different stages of your life? I somehow find it very strange that now people are trying to box "normal" (as in that's how our system is supposed to work) behavior into "trans" - what's the purpose of that? I'm sure it's not helping acceptance from (frankly speaking) "weird" people which apparently can't accept other opinions. If everyone is non-binary to some degree (which seems the conclusion of some herr), why make a category for that and not just treat the psychologically ill who can't accept that? and yes, that was a misinterpretation apparently. However, I am right that transition actually means taking hormones, getting an operation or daily crossdressing? Because if it's not and the people are unhappy, I think they should get psychological help (which might be a stigma itself). Except for the real external features I really doubt that people in the rural US really get to know that you are watching romcoms with your wife and enjoy it? Btw: if there's 1 of 100 trans, how come you really know a lot of them? I imagine if they are in the closet, it's hard to get them talking about these things as well! So how do you do it? EDIT: isn't something completely broken if some people binarize traits as female and male and accordingly everyone in between as non-binary? I mean, before we categorized people into genders by sex, now we categorize people into gender by their binarized behavior.

by fock 6y ago

valenciarose 6y ago

It’s not a mass phenomenon. Neither is Autism. Fewer people are trans than are gay, but nobody really knows. At the bottom end it’s 0.3%-0.6% of the population, but that’s only people who are out. If you survey people in their low 20s, it’s higher. We’re a little less common than redheads in all likelihood. Gay people in the early 80s knew there were a lot more gay people than straight people saw, but they had no idea what the true numbers were. It’s like that. Most of the trans people I know aren’t remotely avant-garde. I know a bunch of suburban women in monogamous relationships with their spouses or partners. I know a couple of suburban trans guys who are still married to the men they married before they figured it out, one of them with kids. I know several trans guys in health care. I do know a few trans people who are artist and writer types and are more flamboyant. The first trans woman I met worked at the same Wall Street brokerage I did and was very quiet. When I go to (back when travel was a thing) places that are less friendly than the coasts and people see the trans flag pin on my bag, I frequently have people come out to me and talk about how they can never transition. There is really no orthodoxy beyond believe people about their gender. Trans people are very different from each other and their experience of being trans varies wildly. There’s some agreement around language and tropes that seem to provoke violence towards us, but many trans people use language to describe themselves that other trans people would be offended by. But that’s true of gay people too.

fock 6y ago
how are people who still live their cis-lives, happy and don't really plan anything medical trans? Or is trans today just a catch-all phrase for everything a little androgynous? > but many trans people use language to describe themselves that other trans people would be offended by. this seems very much like some orthodoxy trying to prescribe their opinion. What's the problem with that language as long as (I assume) people are happy with it?
- jolux 6y ago
  First off: yes, trans tends to be an umbrella term these days. >how are people who still live their cis-lives, happy and don't really plan anything medical trans? Or is trans today just a catch-all phrase for everything a little androgynous? If I understand correctly, you're misinterpreting this graf: >When I go to (back when travel was a thing) places that are less friendly than the coasts and people see the trans flag pin on my bag, I frequently have people come out to me and talk about how they can never transition. The trans people GP is talking about here are absolutely trans, but they don't feel safe transitioning because their local environment is more hostile to trans people overall than the west coast or northeast of the US. I know a lot of trans people like that and "living their cis-lives," "happy," and "don't plan on anything medical" don't even begin to describe their existence. I worry a lot about most of them. Being in the closet as a trans person is not inherently safer and in particular rates of suicide are much higher. >this seems very much like some orthodoxy trying to prescribe their opinion. What's the problem with that language as long as (I assume) people are happy with it? It's a question of respectability and what it means to reclaim something. Some trans people like to use traditionally offensive words to describe themselves, others don't. In general I think it's best that we don't describe others with offensive terms unless they ask for it, even as they become more frequently reclaimed, but I have no problem with whatever labels someone chooses for themselves, and different communities have different norms around these things.
  - fock 6y ago
    So I got that after someone here talked about being nearly trans, because he had no stereotypical feelings? Shouldn't that be normal that your mood changes and you like different things on different days and in different stages of your life? I somehow find it very strange that now people are trying to box "normal" (as in that's how our system is supposed to work) behavior into "trans" - what's the purpose of that? I'm sure it's not helping acceptance from (frankly speaking) "weird" people which apparently can't accept other opinions. If everyone is non-binary to some degree (which seems the conclusion of some herr), why make a category for that and not just treat the psychologically ill who can't accept that? and yes, that was a misinterpretation apparently. However, I am right that transition actually means taking hormones, getting an operation or daily crossdressing? Because if it's not and the people are unhappy, I think they should get psychological help (which might be a stigma itself). Except for the real external features I really doubt that people in the rural US really get to know that you are watching romcoms with your wife and enjoy it? Btw: if there's 1 of 100 trans, how come you really know a lot of them? I imagine if they are in the closet, it's hard to get them talking about these things as well! So how do you do it? EDIT: isn't something completely broken if some people binarize traits as female and male and accordingly everyone in between as non-binary? I mean, before we categorized people into genders by sex, now we categorize people into gender by their binarized behavior.