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It’s not clear to me what this means. I’ve never made any positive choice to be a man. I’ve never told anyone “I’m a man”. But everyone somehow concludes that I

It’s not clear to me what this means. I’ve never made any positive choice to be a man. I’ve never told anyone “I’m a man”. But everyone somehow concludes that I’m a man. What does it mean to “identify as” something?

hackmiester 6y ago
It means you come to a conclusion that you are that something. This may or may not coincide with your outward appearance or anything else.
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joshuamorton 6y ago
> I’ve never made any positive choice to be a man. Do you perceive yourself as a man?
- umanwizard 6y ago
  I’m not sure what that means.
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    I'll ask the question a different way: when people perceive and address you like a man, do you feel any reason to disagree with how they address or perceive you?
    - umanwizard 6y ago
      No, I don’t. Is that really the entirety of “identifying as” something - not disagreeing with other people identifying you as that?
      - Pfhreak 6y ago
        That's one means to understand your identity. Generally, if you'd say, "I am a ..." then you identify as that. You might say, for instance, I am a Catholic. Or I am a Muslim. I am a man. I am a woman. I am a chef. I am a zookeeper. I am a gun owner. I am a pacifist. I am a vegetarian. etc. etc. Whatever your "I am a ..." statements are, they are how you identify. You will find some of them you feel strongly about and others you don't really care about but you might say them anyways. "I am a man" might not be a statement that carries a lot of feelings with it for you, whereas something like, "I am an atheist" might. Some folks are proud Republicans or Democrats, others aren't. Others might disagree with how you identify. They might say, "Well, you might think you are a Christian, but...", and that's where we all have to collectively decide where we should be policing identities of others.
        tomp 6y ago
        This is a bit simplistic, isn’t it? Muslim, Christian, pacifist are pretty much opinions, so it doesn’t make sense to call them “identities” as they can change any time (you wouldn’t call “dressed in a suit” or “hungry” identities, would you?) Chef, gun owner, vegetarian - those are facts. You can say you’re a chef without ever having cooked a thing, or gun owner without owning a gun, or a vegetarian while eating steak, but that doesn’t make it your identity, it just makes you wrong.
        Pfhreak 6y ago
        Identity is about how you visualize yourself, and how strongly you feel those visualizations define that concept of you. And yes, I know people for whom hungry is a part of their identity -- it's certainly common in media as well. Sleepy is another one I've seen. Clothing choices are sometimes part of someone's identity. There are people who wouldn't be caught dead in a suit, and people who wouldn't leave home without one. Identity isn't some measure of objective reality, it's about who you believe you are and what you value about that. When your identity doesn't match reality, it can cause something called dysphoria -- the opposite of euphoria. Take someone who identifies strongly as a chef but hasn't ever cooked. They might be miserable all the time, frustrated by their current job, day dreaming about the meals they hope to prepare. It might be really distracting and impactful to their lives. They might quit their job and go to culinary school. Or they might have to take a look at their identity and see how to adapt to the dysphoria.
ceejayoz 6y ago
If someone said "you're a woman", would you disagree?
- umanwizard 6y ago
  I think I wouldn’t really care, to be honest. Nobody has ever done that, so I can’t be sure.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    In that case, perhaps you're one of the people out there who doesn't strongly identify with any particular gender.
    - empthought 6y ago
      See, this is an exercise in deliberate confusion. If someone said I was female, of course I would contradict them if it was warranted. My male characteristics are objectively verifiable, up to and including having sired children rather than having given birth to them. My identity has nothing to do with any of this. And for most people, “man” and “male” are synonyms. This is why people always express confusion about what it means to “identify” one way or the other. Identity is irrelevant to reproductive role, and sex is about reproduction, and gender is about sex.
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        > And for most people, “man” and “male” are synonyms. OK. If you call someone gay in the 1800s, it'll probably not mean the same thing as doing it today. Terms change; distinctions between similar terms get made as they're needed. > Identity is irrelevant to reproductive role, and sex is about reproduction, and gender is about sex. There's several bald assertions in there. I'm infertile, so "sex is about reproduction" makes me chuckle a bit, for example.
        empthought 6y ago

hackmiester 6y ago

It means you come to a conclusion that you are that something. This may or may not coincide with your outward appearance or anything else.

deleted 6y ago
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deleted 6y ago
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joshuamorton 6y ago

> I’ve never made any positive choice to be a man. Do you perceive yourself as a man?

umanwizard 6y ago
I’m not sure what that means.
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  I'll ask the question a different way: when people perceive and address you like a man, do you feel any reason to disagree with how they address or perceive you?
  - umanwizard 6y ago
    No, I don’t. Is that really the entirety of “identifying as” something - not disagreeing with other people identifying you as that?
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      That's one means to understand your identity. Generally, if you'd say, "I am a ..." then you identify as that. You might say, for instance, I am a Catholic. Or I am a Muslim. I am a man. I am a woman. I am a chef. I am a zookeeper. I am a gun owner. I am a pacifist. I am a vegetarian. etc. etc. Whatever your "I am a ..." statements are, they are how you identify. You will find some of them you feel strongly about and others you don't really care about but you might say them anyways. "I am a man" might not be a statement that carries a lot of feelings with it for you, whereas something like, "I am an atheist" might. Some folks are proud Republicans or Democrats, others aren't. Others might disagree with how you identify. They might say, "Well, you might think you are a Christian, but...", and that's where we all have to collectively decide where we should be policing identities of others.
      - tomp 6y ago
        This is a bit simplistic, isn’t it? Muslim, Christian, pacifist are pretty much opinions, so it doesn’t make sense to call them “identities” as they can change any time (you wouldn’t call “dressed in a suit” or “hungry” identities, would you?) Chef, gun owner, vegetarian - those are facts. You can say you’re a chef without ever having cooked a thing, or gun owner without owning a gun, or a vegetarian while eating steak, but that doesn’t make it your identity, it just makes you wrong.
        Pfhreak 6y ago
        Identity is about how you visualize yourself, and how strongly you feel those visualizations define that concept of you. And yes, I know people for whom hungry is a part of their identity -- it's certainly common in media as well. Sleepy is another one I've seen. Clothing choices are sometimes part of someone's identity. There are people who wouldn't be caught dead in a suit, and people who wouldn't leave home without one. Identity isn't some measure of objective reality, it's about who you believe you are and what you value about that. When your identity doesn't match reality, it can cause something called dysphoria -- the opposite of euphoria. Take someone who identifies strongly as a chef but hasn't ever cooked. They might be miserable all the time, frustrated by their current job, day dreaming about the meals they hope to prepare. It might be really distracting and impactful to their lives. They might quit their job and go to culinary school. Or they might have to take a look at their identity and see how to adapt to the dysphoria.

ceejayoz 6y ago

If someone said "you're a woman", would you disagree?

umanwizard 6y ago
I think I wouldn’t really care, to be honest. Nobody has ever done that, so I can’t be sure.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  In that case, perhaps you're one of the people out there who doesn't strongly identify with any particular gender.
  - empthought 6y ago
    See, this is an exercise in deliberate confusion. If someone said I was female, of course I would contradict them if it was warranted. My male characteristics are objectively verifiable, up to and including having sired children rather than having given birth to them. My identity has nothing to do with any of this. And for most people, “man” and “male” are synonyms. This is why people always express confusion about what it means to “identify” one way or the other. Identity is irrelevant to reproductive role, and sex is about reproduction, and gender is about sex.
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      > And for most people, “man” and “male” are synonyms. OK. If you call someone gay in the 1800s, it'll probably not mean the same thing as doing it today. Terms change; distinctions between similar terms get made as they're needed. > Identity is irrelevant to reproductive role, and sex is about reproduction, and gender is about sex. There's several bald assertions in there. I'm infertile, so "sex is about reproduction" makes me chuckle a bit, for example.
      - empthought 6y ago