7 ms·

Trans people in general were largely ignored by research until the 2010s, so there's very little we do know at this point. But as for unresearched hunches...

Trans people in general were largely ignored by research until the 2010s, so there's very little we do know at this point. But as for unresearched hunches... There's lots of jokes in the trans community about how your stereotypical trans girl is on the autism spectrum, with rainbow-colored hair, and into kink, anime, and programming. I think there's more of a willingness to challenge societal expectations of us in the neurodiverse community, and many of us feel uncomfortable with expectations placed on us around gender roles and sexuality. So I'm curious how much is a causal relationship, and how much of it is a willingness to reject societal expectations that seem irrational. I value my freedom a lot, and the expectations placed on me when I lived as a boy felt stifling and exhausting. I can only speak to my personal experiences, and I don't believe in policing peoples' decisions to transition, but I have strong memories from as early as five of wanting to be a girl. I was very sensitive as a child. Typical autism-spectrum stuff like sensitivity to sounds, lights, and pain, but also an intense emotional empathy - I was a huge crybaby until my teens, and never felt like I fit in with guys my age or shared many interests with them. So when I found out that transitioning was an option, I pushed hard for it. It's possible that in today's age of greater gender freedoms I wouldn't have had as much reason to transition. But I just don't identify with the male experience at all, and have no desire to see my body masculinize more and more as I age. Also, I can wear so much more colorful and expressive clothes now :) I think some people transition because they identify very strongly as the other gender, and others (particularly on the autism spectrum) identify outside of the gender binary, so they transition to better express that identity.

deleted 6y ago
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andreskytt 6y ago
Interesting. What you describe about not fitting in etc. is very similar to my experience. Only that I’m a straight male. Could it be that transitioning is not so much about gender but about fitting in? If I could put a name to my angst and the barriers with others, it might be “transgender”. Which could give me a community of similar folks, a measure of acceptance, a handle, on why I’m not like the others. The research describes correlation, but maybe the causality is the other way around with “weird” people finding ways to cope with their being in a particular fashion?
- proverbialbunny 6y ago
  I can't speak for anyone else, but I transitioned before I had met another tg person. When I transitioned I was already apart of a social group. I didn't need to fit in or find my place. When I was a kid I got along with both boys and girls making friends with both. People do seek out others like themselves, but transgender communities are rare, because transgender people are rare. There are not many of them. When there are hundreds of people gossiping about transgendered people for every transgendered person it's easy for faulty information to be spread. There is a lot of misunderstandings about transgender people.
  - Eiskugel 6y ago
    Interestingly enough in computer nerd communities, tg are more common then females.
- jmcgough 6y ago
  Yeah, not fitting in is probably pretty common among introverted programmer types. But for me, feeling like I identified more as a girl was really what pulled me in that direction.
- azeirah 6y ago
  It had nothing to do with fitting in for me. It felt more like I already was a girl, but my body grew into the wrong direction. I just had to transition otherwise I didn't feel like myself, and now I do.
throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
> ...and the expectations placed on me when I lived as a boy felt stifling and exhausting I don't find that as extremely as you've given it here, but I do know what you mean and I'm a bog-standard cis male. But I never fitted in, never understood the blokey stuff - or maybe I did, but blokes take their nature (which are different from women, no doubt) and then push it to extremes[0] (you like to go out? Great! We must drink whether you like it or not! Maybe you like footy? OK, let's get extreme and tribal about it! But that brightly coloured thing you're wearing makes you look like a poof by the way). I never fitted in and it can wear you down. As a straight guy I find the company of gays quite fine because they are more accepting. edit: [0] this seems more prevalent in younger males. As we age, we become less so and more thoughtful, and therefore tolerant.
- deleted 6y ago
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odessacubbage 6y ago
>I just don't identify with the male experience at all this is a big part of it imo, your stereotypical effeminate depressed autist has virtually no connection to traditional cultural overtures of masculinity except in the body they inhabit and it's very easy to reach a point where it feels like that body is working against you.
fnord123 6y ago
> also an intense emotional empathy I've read people saying this before, but DSM-5 299.00 (F84.0) for ASD suggests the complete opposite. So where do you get this description as a trait for ASD?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
paganel 6y ago
Is it not seen as societally acceptable in the States to wear colorful clothes as a male teenager/adolescent? I know I grew up in the ‘90s (in Europe) and as a kid I knew I liked colorful shirts (red, yellow) well into my mid-teens, I didn’t see them as male or non-male. The only comment I received about the color of a thing I own happened relatively recently (I’m almost 40 now), as one of my aunts remarked that my car is “girlish” because of its color (red). I found that strange and an interesting sociological input, but nothing more.
- Garlef 6y ago
  > Is it not seen as societally acceptable in the States to wear colorful clothes as a male teenager/adolescent? Anecdote: I visited the US last year and happened to be invited by a friend to a climbing gym in the bay area. Said friend wore a shirt that was pink/purple. I was there for two hours or so. In this time he got two comments about the color, jokingly painting a picture of him as being gay.
- alchemism 6y ago
  In New York City you can literally wear anything and no one will say a word or acknowledge your existence as a human being. But I also knew a boy from rural Texas who was regularly harassed and beaten growing up because he wore athletic clothes (Adidas track suits) instead of cowboy boots and 10-gallon hats.
  - throwaway20148 6y ago
    I grew up in the 90s in rural Texas and never owned western attire and was just fine. Your friend is overstating the role of clothing in his experience I suspect.
    - alchemism 6y ago
      He was college age by the 90s. I’m fairly confident you grew up in different towns, also. It is a big country, which is the point of the retelling. (Not intending to throw shade on Texas)
Eiskugel 6y ago
I thought about something like this in a more broader spectrum. Also completely judgment free, if not even with a little bit of envy. Do you know people who have strong hobbies? Like not just building sometimes a lego set but having a basement full of it, sorted etc. Only doing this for a long time as well. Or people who dress very strongly: Punks, Certain Type of homosexual people,Hippies, Antifa, Nazis. I was and still not sure what my thing is and i have the feeling that i'm going thorugh my life looking a little bit left, a little bit right. Hardcore fetishes don't bother me but don't have an appeal that i would do it. Wearing stuff like artsy stuff is entertaining to look at but i wouldn't put the effort into it. But what is the difference to those people who get stuck? Yeah thats what i call it basically. Stuck people. They have been Antifa for 20 years. They go to work, don't throw in window but still a little bit alternative. More extreme, more passionate about those kind of things perhaps? I'm not an expert at all in Transgen etc. and yes i personally from my simplified worldview, i would probably not risk an op if i would feel different. I would perhaps (and of course i don't know that) just sit it out? When i see Transgen people on hacker events, they created a subculture. I'm a nerd but i always wanted to play with all the other 'normal' kids and a subculture is effort and perhaps group thinking and group pressure. And on the other side, they have their crazy cool lego sets, and train models and are experts in a niche. They know exactly what they will do for the rest of their lives. I will continue to look left and right and just continue. I would love to understand more what type of shades are out there and why.
Macha 6y ago
> and into kink, anime, and programming. The anime one is an interesting example, because I've seen the perspective in the anime community is that trans people are also disproportionately common there, similar to your mention that anime is an interest that is disproportionately common among trans communities. The common brightly coloured hair seems to come from the fact that society is not fully accepting of trans people and depending on the level of that in your social circles, it may feel like you need to break a taboo just to be yourself, so other social expectations (like modest hair colours) are also downgraded in importance.
- Ntrails 6y ago
  >other social expectations (like modest hair colours) are also downgraded in importance The old school "goth" style, well that was breaking the social clothing/makeup etc conventions. Rebelling against the norms. But there would be a group of 5 people doing the exact same thing, rebelling in the same way, and bonding together over it. I'm not sure to what extent it generalises to the above, but just a thing that was commonly observable

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

andreskytt 6y ago

Interesting. What you describe about not fitting in etc. is very similar to my experience. Only that I’m a straight male. Could it be that transitioning is not so much about gender but about fitting in? If I could put a name to my angst and the barriers with others, it might be “transgender”. Which could give me a community of similar folks, a measure of acceptance, a handle, on why I’m not like the others. The research describes correlation, but maybe the causality is the other way around with “weird” people finding ways to cope with their being in a particular fashion?

proverbialbunny 6y ago
I can't speak for anyone else, but I transitioned before I had met another tg person. When I transitioned I was already apart of a social group. I didn't need to fit in or find my place. When I was a kid I got along with both boys and girls making friends with both. People do seek out others like themselves, but transgender communities are rare, because transgender people are rare. There are not many of them. When there are hundreds of people gossiping about transgendered people for every transgendered person it's easy for faulty information to be spread. There is a lot of misunderstandings about transgender people.
- Eiskugel 6y ago
  Interestingly enough in computer nerd communities, tg are more common then females.
jmcgough 6y ago
Yeah, not fitting in is probably pretty common among introverted programmer types. But for me, feeling like I identified more as a girl was really what pulled me in that direction.
azeirah 6y ago
It had nothing to do with fitting in for me. It felt more like I already was a girl, but my body grew into the wrong direction. I just had to transition otherwise I didn't feel like myself, and now I do.

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago

> ...and the expectations placed on me when I lived as a boy felt stifling and exhausting I don't find that as extremely as you've given it here, but I do know what you mean and I'm a bog-standard cis male. But I never fitted in, never understood the blokey stuff - or maybe I did, but blokes take their nature (which are different from women, no doubt) and then push it to extremes[0] (you like to go out? Great! We must drink whether you like it or not! Maybe you like footy? OK, let's get extreme and tribal about it! But that brightly coloured thing you're wearing makes you look like a poof by the way). I never fitted in and it can wear you down. As a straight guy I find the company of gays quite fine because they are more accepting. edit: [0] this seems more prevalent in younger males. As we age, we become less so and more thoughtful, and therefore tolerant.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

odessacubbage 6y ago

>I just don't identify with the male experience at all this is a big part of it imo, your stereotypical effeminate depressed autist has virtually no connection to traditional cultural overtures of masculinity except in the body they inhabit and it's very easy to reach a point where it feels like that body is working against you.

fnord123 6y ago

> also an intense emotional empathy I've read people saying this before, but DSM-5 299.00 (F84.0) for ASD suggests the complete opposite. So where do you get this description as a trait for ASD?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

paganel 6y ago

Is it not seen as societally acceptable in the States to wear colorful clothes as a male teenager/adolescent? I know I grew up in the ‘90s (in Europe) and as a kid I knew I liked colorful shirts (red, yellow) well into my mid-teens, I didn’t see them as male or non-male. The only comment I received about the color of a thing I own happened relatively recently (I’m almost 40 now), as one of my aunts remarked that my car is “girlish” because of its color (red). I found that strange and an interesting sociological input, but nothing more.

Garlef 6y ago
> Is it not seen as societally acceptable in the States to wear colorful clothes as a male teenager/adolescent? Anecdote: I visited the US last year and happened to be invited by a friend to a climbing gym in the bay area. Said friend wore a shirt that was pink/purple. I was there for two hours or so. In this time he got two comments about the color, jokingly painting a picture of him as being gay.
alchemism 6y ago
In New York City you can literally wear anything and no one will say a word or acknowledge your existence as a human being. But I also knew a boy from rural Texas who was regularly harassed and beaten growing up because he wore athletic clothes (Adidas track suits) instead of cowboy boots and 10-gallon hats.
- throwaway20148 6y ago
  I grew up in the 90s in rural Texas and never owned western attire and was just fine. Your friend is overstating the role of clothing in his experience I suspect.
  - alchemism 6y ago
    He was college age by the 90s. I’m fairly confident you grew up in different towns, also. It is a big country, which is the point of the retelling. (Not intending to throw shade on Texas)

Eiskugel 6y ago

I thought about something like this in a more broader spectrum. Also completely judgment free, if not even with a little bit of envy. Do you know people who have strong hobbies? Like not just building sometimes a lego set but having a basement full of it, sorted etc. Only doing this for a long time as well. Or people who dress very strongly: Punks, Certain Type of homosexual people,Hippies, Antifa, Nazis. I was and still not sure what my thing is and i have the feeling that i'm going thorugh my life looking a little bit left, a little bit right. Hardcore fetishes don't bother me but don't have an appeal that i would do it. Wearing stuff like artsy stuff is entertaining to look at but i wouldn't put the effort into it. But what is the difference to those people who get stuck? Yeah thats what i call it basically. Stuck people. They have been Antifa for 20 years. They go to work, don't throw in window but still a little bit alternative. More extreme, more passionate about those kind of things perhaps? I'm not an expert at all in Transgen etc. and yes i personally from my simplified worldview, i would probably not risk an op if i would feel different. I would perhaps (and of course i don't know that) just sit it out? When i see Transgen people on hacker events, they created a subculture. I'm a nerd but i always wanted to play with all the other 'normal' kids and a subculture is effort and perhaps group thinking and group pressure. And on the other side, they have their crazy cool lego sets, and train models and are experts in a niche. They know exactly what they will do for the rest of their lives. I will continue to look left and right and just continue. I would love to understand more what type of shades are out there and why.

Macha 6y ago

> and into kink, anime, and programming. The anime one is an interesting example, because I've seen the perspective in the anime community is that trans people are also disproportionately common there, similar to your mention that anime is an interest that is disproportionately common among trans communities. The common brightly coloured hair seems to come from the fact that society is not fully accepting of trans people and depending on the level of that in your social circles, it may feel like you need to break a taboo just to be yourself, so other social expectations (like modest hair colours) are also downgraded in importance.

Ntrails 6y ago
>other social expectations (like modest hair colours) are also downgraded in importance The old school "goth" style, well that was breaking the social clothing/makeup etc conventions. Rebelling against the norms. But there would be a group of 5 people doing the exact same thing, rebelling in the same way, and bonding together over it. I'm not sure to what extent it generalises to the above, but just a thing that was commonly observable