4 ms·

I've flagged this comment but I also feel the need to write a response because this kind of uncritical dog-whistle is something that actively contributes to vio

I've flagged this comment but I also feel the need to write a response because this kind of uncritical dog-whistle is something that actively contributes to violence against trans people. There's no evidence to suggest that trans folks encourage anybody, including autistic folks, to "believe that they're trans." However, there is myriad evidence that fear of trans folks "converting" other people is one of the motivating factors of violence against trans people. If there are "so many ways to interpret a correlation such as this" I'd encourage the parent commenter to consider using as examples ideas which have evidence to back them up and that are not directly linked as motivations behind violence against trans people.

leephillips 6y ago
Your objections are all from imagined motivation (“dog whistle”) or from imagined consequences of my being right. These are both informal fallacies, and not legitimate forms of argumentation. Unless you believe that the current unprecedented epidemic of adolescent girls deciding that they are trans has an organic origin, somebody is convincing them of this. My objections to the study are logical objections. Since the only definition of a “trans” person is somebody who says that he is trans, research such as this can be looked at as being essentially circular. EDIT (additions): Just for the record, I condemn any violence, or unkindness, toward trans people or anyone else. But those who are paying attention to the debates in this sphere will recognize this tactic: any questioning of currently fashionable “gender” ideas is met with the accusation that one’s speech will cause violence against trans people.
- zaksoup 6y ago
  Sorry if I was unclear. I did not mean to imply any specific motivation of yours. That being said, the example you used is a dog whistle commonly used by folks whose motivations I have no problem imagining, and it is used to perpetrate violence towards trans people. Furthermore, as I feel quite certain that, given your lack of evidence, you are not right, the consequences I "imagine" are not stemming from you being right or wrong but from folks willing to do violence against trans folks believing you are right and using that believe to justify their violence. If you believe that the so-called epidemic of adolescents coming out as trans has an in-organic origin you're welcome to present the evidence of that. I stand by my statement that there is none.
  - leephillips 6y ago
    So what do you think it is, probably? A mass mutation? Something in the water?
    - zaksoup 6y ago
      This doesn't seem like a productive line of questioning. If you have research that shows what you're trying to claim is happening I'd be happy to read it and share my thoughts on it.
      - will4274 6y ago
        I mean, he's clearing referring to the book by Abigail Shrier which has made all sorts of media buzz, including being banned some places and some anti censorship shouts from the right. Is the claim in the book that groups of young women transition in clusters wrong? Most of the objections I've heard to the book haven't made that argument, so I have just assumed the book was correct on that point.
  - Nickste 6y ago
    Thank you for calling out op’s comment. I believe they come from a Joe Rogan interview, which op mentions on his blog, and which is clear dog whistling. There was a helpful thread on Twitter that covered this specific topic, which might be helpful for op, and any others that share the view, to understand why it is not grounded in fact: https://twitter.com/Carter_AndrewJ/status/1270811917616062467 https://twitter.com/Carter_AndrewJ/status/127081191761606246...
  - intuitionist 6y ago
    Presumably this is related to the absolute collapse in population serum testosterone levels over the last decades. I’m a “cis male” by the standards of 2020, but by the standards of preindustrial hormone levels we’re all trans women.
- 8note 6y ago
  Epidemic implies some kind of disease no? Telling people they're sick for existing is certainly unkindness
  - dx87 6y ago
    No, an epidemic is just anything spreading within a group. > Epidemic: affecting or tending to affect a disproportionately large number of individuals within a population, community, or region at the same time. Edit: You know people can't have an adult conversation on a topic when the definition of a word is downvoted.
    - leephillips 6y ago
      Now try to define “woman” and see what happens.
gedy 6y ago
I know this is just an online forum, but the equating of any form of questioning or critiquing of trans activism with physical violence, causing suicide, or general hatred is really counter productive IMHO, and diminishes the actual struggles trans individuals have with families, coworkers, etc.

leephillips 6y ago

Your objections are all from imagined motivation (“dog whistle”) or from imagined consequences of my being right. These are both informal fallacies, and not legitimate forms of argumentation. Unless you believe that the current unprecedented epidemic of adolescent girls deciding that they are trans has an organic origin, somebody is convincing them of this. My objections to the study are logical objections. Since the only definition of a “trans” person is somebody who says that he is trans, research such as this can be looked at as being essentially circular. EDIT (additions): Just for the record, I condemn any violence, or unkindness, toward trans people or anyone else. But those who are paying attention to the debates in this sphere will recognize this tactic: any questioning of currently fashionable “gender” ideas is met with the accusation that one’s speech will cause violence against trans people.

zaksoup 6y ago
Sorry if I was unclear. I did not mean to imply any specific motivation of yours. That being said, the example you used is a dog whistle commonly used by folks whose motivations I have no problem imagining, and it is used to perpetrate violence towards trans people. Furthermore, as I feel quite certain that, given your lack of evidence, you are not right, the consequences I "imagine" are not stemming from you being right or wrong but from folks willing to do violence against trans folks believing you are right and using that believe to justify their violence. If you believe that the so-called epidemic of adolescents coming out as trans has an in-organic origin you're welcome to present the evidence of that. I stand by my statement that there is none.
- leephillips 6y ago
  So what do you think it is, probably? A mass mutation? Something in the water?
  - zaksoup 6y ago
    This doesn't seem like a productive line of questioning. If you have research that shows what you're trying to claim is happening I'd be happy to read it and share my thoughts on it.
    - will4274 6y ago
      I mean, he's clearing referring to the book by Abigail Shrier which has made all sorts of media buzz, including being banned some places and some anti censorship shouts from the right. Is the claim in the book that groups of young women transition in clusters wrong? Most of the objections I've heard to the book haven't made that argument, so I have just assumed the book was correct on that point.
- Nickste 6y ago
  Thank you for calling out op’s comment. I believe they come from a Joe Rogan interview, which op mentions on his blog, and which is clear dog whistling. There was a helpful thread on Twitter that covered this specific topic, which might be helpful for op, and any others that share the view, to understand why it is not grounded in fact: https://twitter.com/Carter_AndrewJ/status/1270811917616062467 https://twitter.com/Carter_AndrewJ/status/127081191761606246...
- intuitionist 6y ago
  Presumably this is related to the absolute collapse in population serum testosterone levels over the last decades. I’m a “cis male” by the standards of 2020, but by the standards of preindustrial hormone levels we’re all trans women.
8note 6y ago
Epidemic implies some kind of disease no? Telling people they're sick for existing is certainly unkindness
- dx87 6y ago
  No, an epidemic is just anything spreading within a group. > Epidemic: affecting or tending to affect a disproportionately large number of individuals within a population, community, or region at the same time. Edit: You know people can't have an adult conversation on a topic when the definition of a word is downvoted.
  - leephillips 6y ago
    Now try to define “woman” and see what happens.

gedy 6y ago

I know this is just an online forum, but the equating of any form of questioning or critiquing of trans activism with physical violence, causing suicide, or general hatred is really counter productive IMHO, and diminishes the actual struggles trans individuals have with families, coworkers, etc.