7 ms·

My mother's family is all autistic engineers. I and two of my cousins transitioned as teenagers, so I've had my own theories about this for years.

neonate 6y ago
I'd love to hear your theories if you'd be willing to share them.
- zaksoup 6y ago
  I'm not the OC but many of my friends and peers are trans and I find "agender" to be the most useful descriptor to myself. One thing I've noted is that once you start to identify the ways in which gender is fundamentally a social construct the link with autistic/neurodivergent folks makes much more sense. Anybody who struggles to instinctively navigate social norms and behaviors will also struggle to instinctively navigate gendered norms and behaviors, simply because the two are inextricable.
  - trans-stealth 6y ago
    That pretty much describes my relationship with gender. I was undiagnosed as a kid, gender was confusing, different standards were confusing. I just didn't care, among other reasons, I decided to transition. Very happy, but still have an idea of how I would navigate things different... but that's life, right?
  - klipt 6y ago
    > Anybody who struggles to instinctively navigate social norms and behaviors will also struggle to instinctively navigate gendered norms and behaviors, simply because the two are inextricable. But if masculine and feminine gender roles are equally difficult to navigate, that doesn't explain why transitioning would help. You'd just be swapping out one difficult gender role with another.
    - seba_dos1 6y ago
      They may be "equally difficult to navigate" in a grand scheme of things, but they're probably not equally difficult for a particular person. Everyone got their own set of traits and interests that may make adhering to a particular gender role easier than the others.
      - klipt 6y ago
        So that would imply that non autistic people may also feel like their brains don't match their bodies, but since they're better at navigating gender roles, they're more likely to just adapt around the dysphoria instead of transitioning?
        zaksoup 6y ago
        I think this is exactly right.
    - Garlef 6y ago
      > But if masculine and feminine gender roles are equally difficult to navigate Suicide rates are much higher among males. So maybe this assumption does not hold.
      - selectodude 6y ago
        Suicide rates are higher for men, attempted suicide rates are higher for women. Men just tend to use more successful methods in their attempts.
        scarmig 6y ago
        Even within a given category of method of suicide, men are more successful. If you look at countries where gun suicides are pretty much nonexistent, men still "successfully" complete suicide at a rate approximately 10x that of women. That should be taken as a sign that "suicide attempt" numbers shouldn't be taken at face value as evidence that women have it harder than men.
- jmcgough 6y ago
  Trans people in general were largely ignored by research until the 2010s, so there's very little we do know at this point. But as for unresearched hunches... There's lots of jokes in the trans community about how your stereotypical trans girl is on the autism spectrum, with rainbow-colored hair, and into kink, anime, and programming. I think there's more of a willingness to challenge societal expectations of us in the neurodiverse community, and many of us feel uncomfortable with expectations placed on us around gender roles and sexuality. So I'm curious how much is a causal relationship, and how much of it is a willingness to reject societal expectations that seem irrational. I value my freedom a lot, and the expectations placed on me when I lived as a boy felt stifling and exhausting. I can only speak to my personal experiences, and I don't believe in policing peoples' decisions to transition, but I have strong memories from as early as five of wanting to be a girl. I was very sensitive as a child. Typical autism-spectrum stuff like sensitivity to sounds, lights, and pain, but also an intense emotional empathy - I was a huge crybaby until my teens, and never felt like I fit in with guys my age or shared many interests with them. So when I found out that transitioning was an option, I pushed hard for it. It's possible that in today's age of greater gender freedoms I wouldn't have had as much reason to transition. But I just don't identify with the male experience at all, and have no desire to see my body masculinize more and more as I age. Also, I can wear so much more colorful and expressive clothes now :) I think some people transition because they identify very strongly as the other gender, and others (particularly on the autism spectrum) identify outside of the gender binary, so they transition to better express that identity.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - andreskytt 6y ago
    Interesting. What you describe about not fitting in etc. is very similar to my experience. Only that I’m a straight male. Could it be that transitioning is not so much about gender but about fitting in? If I could put a name to my angst and the barriers with others, it might be “transgender”. Which could give me a community of similar folks, a measure of acceptance, a handle, on why I’m not like the others. The research describes correlation, but maybe the causality is the other way around with “weird” people finding ways to cope with their being in a particular fashion?
- davmar 6y ago
  not op, but i think that western gender roles are a scam. i'm not suggesting that there aren't differences between biological sexes, but gender != sex and the false idea that there are only two ways to express your gender is quite limiting.
  - clusterfish 6y ago
    And eastern gender roles aren't? Is there something I don't know?
    - ikt 6y ago
      what about northern and southern gender roles?
    - Freak_NL 6y ago
      'Western' in this context presumably means the binary model of man/woman dominant in the West (e.g., Europe, North America) and gradually exported to be the default worldwide (via colonisation and later cultural exports). There have been, and are, exceptions to this model in what might broadly be called 'the East'. Think of the Hijra on the Indian subcontinent, or the Kathoey (Ladyboys) in Thailand.
      - clusterfish 6y ago
        Thanks. Still I think to call binary genders western is a bit revisionist at best. It has been the most dominant model worldwide for a really long time.
      - notsureaboutpg 6y ago
        Being from India, I'd like to point out that these groups of people you are talking about actually reinforce a gender binary rather than muddling it. Hijra are men who take on all the societal roles of women. They aren't "non-binary" or some "third" gender at all. They espouse and exude femininity, and in India there are two modes of being in society: feminine and masculine. Hijra do not add a third way of being that is separate from both masculinity and femininity. I'd also argue that their existence is not a proof that Indians have different ideas about gender than Westerners. They are a marginalized people because most of Indian society thinks it is odd / unfortunate / a disorder to be a man and yet want to be socially a woman. It isn't Western to have two gender roles in society. Men and women are different in lots of ways and it's valuable to society to reinforce differences between the two for the sake of procreation.
- mvn9 6y ago
  Not OP, but I fancy this rough theory: According to armchair psychologists and a joke, the answer to every psychological question is 'your mother'. If you look at ways to deal with conflicts [1], it could be that being transgender is a form of dealing with inner conflicts. Being autistic means that there is some distortion (no judgement intended) in the relationship to other people. The distortion most likely originates from the first relationship, i.e. the relationship to the mother. Since there is a need for a fulfilled relationship, it will be fulfilled by one way or another. If e.g. the mother is absent, then the mind looks for another way to fulfil it. One way for fulfilment is becoming the desired object itself. So, to bring it to a point: Autism can origin from an absent mother. One way to replace the need for a mother is becoming a female object for others. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanism
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    I think you're overthinking it :) Trans people I know just feel wrong in their bodies. It looks wrong, it feels wrong. There seems no need to suppose it was right at first then got distorted by relationship problems to the point you want your male genitals removed (I know a tgirl who is waiting for that).
    - ponker 6y ago
      You’re not allowed to say it, apparently, but there is/was evidence that it can be acquired: https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/brown-university-criticized-over-removal-transgender-study-n906741 https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/brown-university-cri...
      - 666lumberjack 6y ago
        The paper that article references was discredited for being bad science, not because of any kind of agenda. They collected their 'data' by surveying parents on online forums - most of them explicitly anti-trans / 'gender critical' - instead of from transgender youth or medical professionals.
- PeterisP 6y ago
  One hypothesis is that disbalance of 'gender-related' hormones during fetal development is a factor that can cause not only gender dysphoria but also autism / Asperger's spectrum related issues.
trianglem 6y ago
You shouldn’t be allowed to use transitioned unless there is literal gene replacement happening.
- hackmiester 6y ago
  Who would police that, and... why?
- dang 6y ago
  In HN's context, this and your other posts in the thread constitute flamebait—that is, inflammatory and unsubstantive. You're violating these two guidelines: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." "Eschew flamebait." If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules, we'd be grateful.
  - trianglem 6y ago
    It’s a clear disagreement and not “bait”. But yes, I get it.
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      Let's discuss. You see male/female as being genetic therefore effectively unalterable, therefore the label of male/female cannot be changed. I am comfortable with the idea that if a person wishes to be seen in a particular way that I do so. Actual example: a couple I know were F/F when I first met them. Now one prefers to use a male name and be referred to as 'he'. Took a bit of adjusting to, ok. Now genetically one thing, but socially speaking another, isn't it just polite to make them feel comfortable? Would you call them 'her' to their face, knowing how it could upset them?
      - encom 6y ago
        (not parent) >Would you call them 'her' to their face, knowing how it could upset them? Maybe, maybe not. What I don't want to do however is keep track of everyones imaginary genders, and face legal repercussions for "misgendering" them. Here's an interesting search to look through: https://duck.com/?q=illegal+misgendering https://duck.com/?q=illegal+misgendering

neonate 6y ago

I'd love to hear your theories if you'd be willing to share them.

zaksoup 6y ago
I'm not the OC but many of my friends and peers are trans and I find "agender" to be the most useful descriptor to myself. One thing I've noted is that once you start to identify the ways in which gender is fundamentally a social construct the link with autistic/neurodivergent folks makes much more sense. Anybody who struggles to instinctively navigate social norms and behaviors will also struggle to instinctively navigate gendered norms and behaviors, simply because the two are inextricable.
- trans-stealth 6y ago
  That pretty much describes my relationship with gender. I was undiagnosed as a kid, gender was confusing, different standards were confusing. I just didn't care, among other reasons, I decided to transition. Very happy, but still have an idea of how I would navigate things different... but that's life, right?
- klipt 6y ago
  > Anybody who struggles to instinctively navigate social norms and behaviors will also struggle to instinctively navigate gendered norms and behaviors, simply because the two are inextricable. But if masculine and feminine gender roles are equally difficult to navigate, that doesn't explain why transitioning would help. You'd just be swapping out one difficult gender role with another.
  - seba_dos1 6y ago
    They may be "equally difficult to navigate" in a grand scheme of things, but they're probably not equally difficult for a particular person. Everyone got their own set of traits and interests that may make adhering to a particular gender role easier than the others.
    - klipt 6y ago
      So that would imply that non autistic people may also feel like their brains don't match their bodies, but since they're better at navigating gender roles, they're more likely to just adapt around the dysphoria instead of transitioning?
      - zaksoup 6y ago
        I think this is exactly right.
  - Garlef 6y ago
    > But if masculine and feminine gender roles are equally difficult to navigate Suicide rates are much higher among males. So maybe this assumption does not hold.
    - selectodude 6y ago
      Suicide rates are higher for men, attempted suicide rates are higher for women. Men just tend to use more successful methods in their attempts.
      - scarmig 6y ago
        Even within a given category of method of suicide, men are more successful. If you look at countries where gun suicides are pretty much nonexistent, men still "successfully" complete suicide at a rate approximately 10x that of women. That should be taken as a sign that "suicide attempt" numbers shouldn't be taken at face value as evidence that women have it harder than men.
jmcgough 6y ago
Trans people in general were largely ignored by research until the 2010s, so there's very little we do know at this point. But as for unresearched hunches... There's lots of jokes in the trans community about how your stereotypical trans girl is on the autism spectrum, with rainbow-colored hair, and into kink, anime, and programming. I think there's more of a willingness to challenge societal expectations of us in the neurodiverse community, and many of us feel uncomfortable with expectations placed on us around gender roles and sexuality. So I'm curious how much is a causal relationship, and how much of it is a willingness to reject societal expectations that seem irrational. I value my freedom a lot, and the expectations placed on me when I lived as a boy felt stifling and exhausting. I can only speak to my personal experiences, and I don't believe in policing peoples' decisions to transition, but I have strong memories from as early as five of wanting to be a girl. I was very sensitive as a child. Typical autism-spectrum stuff like sensitivity to sounds, lights, and pain, but also an intense emotional empathy - I was a huge crybaby until my teens, and never felt like I fit in with guys my age or shared many interests with them. So when I found out that transitioning was an option, I pushed hard for it. It's possible that in today's age of greater gender freedoms I wouldn't have had as much reason to transition. But I just don't identify with the male experience at all, and have no desire to see my body masculinize more and more as I age. Also, I can wear so much more colorful and expressive clothes now :) I think some people transition because they identify very strongly as the other gender, and others (particularly on the autism spectrum) identify outside of the gender binary, so they transition to better express that identity.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- andreskytt 6y ago
  Interesting. What you describe about not fitting in etc. is very similar to my experience. Only that I’m a straight male. Could it be that transitioning is not so much about gender but about fitting in? If I could put a name to my angst and the barriers with others, it might be “transgender”. Which could give me a community of similar folks, a measure of acceptance, a handle, on why I’m not like the others. The research describes correlation, but maybe the causality is the other way around with “weird” people finding ways to cope with their being in a particular fashion?
davmar 6y ago
not op, but i think that western gender roles are a scam. i'm not suggesting that there aren't differences between biological sexes, but gender != sex and the false idea that there are only two ways to express your gender is quite limiting.
- clusterfish 6y ago
  And eastern gender roles aren't? Is there something I don't know?
  - ikt 6y ago
    what about northern and southern gender roles?
  - Freak_NL 6y ago
    'Western' in this context presumably means the binary model of man/woman dominant in the West (e.g., Europe, North America) and gradually exported to be the default worldwide (via colonisation and later cultural exports). There have been, and are, exceptions to this model in what might broadly be called 'the East'. Think of the Hijra on the Indian subcontinent, or the Kathoey (Ladyboys) in Thailand.
    - clusterfish 6y ago
      Thanks. Still I think to call binary genders western is a bit revisionist at best. It has been the most dominant model worldwide for a really long time.
    - notsureaboutpg 6y ago
      Being from India, I'd like to point out that these groups of people you are talking about actually reinforce a gender binary rather than muddling it. Hijra are men who take on all the societal roles of women. They aren't "non-binary" or some "third" gender at all. They espouse and exude femininity, and in India there are two modes of being in society: feminine and masculine. Hijra do not add a third way of being that is separate from both masculinity and femininity. I'd also argue that their existence is not a proof that Indians have different ideas about gender than Westerners. They are a marginalized people because most of Indian society thinks it is odd / unfortunate / a disorder to be a man and yet want to be socially a woman. It isn't Western to have two gender roles in society. Men and women are different in lots of ways and it's valuable to society to reinforce differences between the two for the sake of procreation.
mvn9 6y ago
Not OP, but I fancy this rough theory: According to armchair psychologists and a joke, the answer to every psychological question is 'your mother'. If you look at ways to deal with conflicts [1], it could be that being transgender is a form of dealing with inner conflicts. Being autistic means that there is some distortion (no judgement intended) in the relationship to other people. The distortion most likely originates from the first relationship, i.e. the relationship to the mother. Since there is a need for a fulfilled relationship, it will be fulfilled by one way or another. If e.g. the mother is absent, then the mind looks for another way to fulfil it. One way for fulfilment is becoming the desired object itself. So, to bring it to a point: Autism can origin from an absent mother. One way to replace the need for a mother is becoming a female object for others. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanism
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  I think you're overthinking it :) Trans people I know just feel wrong in their bodies. It looks wrong, it feels wrong. There seems no need to suppose it was right at first then got distorted by relationship problems to the point you want your male genitals removed (I know a tgirl who is waiting for that).
  - ponker 6y ago
    You’re not allowed to say it, apparently, but there is/was evidence that it can be acquired: https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/brown-university-criticized-over-removal-transgender-study-n906741 https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/brown-university-cri...
    - 666lumberjack 6y ago
      The paper that article references was discredited for being bad science, not because of any kind of agenda. They collected their 'data' by surveying parents on online forums - most of them explicitly anti-trans / 'gender critical' - instead of from transgender youth or medical professionals.
PeterisP 6y ago
One hypothesis is that disbalance of 'gender-related' hormones during fetal development is a factor that can cause not only gender dysphoria but also autism / Asperger's spectrum related issues.

trianglem 6y ago

You shouldn’t be allowed to use transitioned unless there is literal gene replacement happening.

hackmiester 6y ago
Who would police that, and... why?
dang 6y ago
In HN's context, this and your other posts in the thread constitute flamebait—that is, inflammatory and unsubstantive. You're violating these two guidelines: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." "Eschew flamebait." If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules, we'd be grateful.
- trianglem 6y ago
  It’s a clear disagreement and not “bait”. But yes, I get it.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    Let's discuss. You see male/female as being genetic therefore effectively unalterable, therefore the label of male/female cannot be changed. I am comfortable with the idea that if a person wishes to be seen in a particular way that I do so. Actual example: a couple I know were F/F when I first met them. Now one prefers to use a male name and be referred to as 'he'. Took a bit of adjusting to, ok. Now genetically one thing, but socially speaking another, isn't it just polite to make them feel comfortable? Would you call them 'her' to their face, knowing how it could upset them?
    - encom 6y ago
      (not parent) >Would you call them 'her' to their face, knowing how it could upset them? Maybe, maybe not. What I don't want to do however is keep track of everyones imaginary genders, and face legal repercussions for "misgendering" them. Here's an interesting search to look through: https://duck.com/?q=illegal+misgendering https://duck.com/?q=illegal+misgendering