6 ms·
What is the distinguishing characteristic of someone who is gender fluid vs. someone who is not?
by empthought 6y ago
What is the distinguishing characteristic of someone who is gender fluid vs. someone who is not?
- anchpop 6y agoThere isn't one, besides them identifying as genderfluid. Same as any other gender identity (like man or woman). I think this makes the terms slightly less useful but it is very important to some people that they're used this way
- scott31 6y ago> Same as any other gender identity (like man or woman). I think there are some distinguishing characteristics for someone who is male vs someone who is female.
- Kaze404 6y ago"Male" and "female" aren't genders.
- empthought 6y agoNeither is “gender fluid,” though, is it?
- grogenaut 6y agoIt would be helpful if you chose to educate by linking to the definitions you are using instead of just chastising for someone not knowing the terminology you are using. The Wikipedia article for gender mentions that the terms sex and gender for biological gender/sex have flip flopped multiple times in the last 30 years. HN is supposed to be a place where people learn, not an anger pit like the rest of the web.
- hackmiester 6y agoI didn’t see any anger in this thread so far.
- Kaze404 6y agoI agree, but you can't really assume good faith from the snarky comment I responded to.
- grogenaut 6y agoReading the GP again, it doesn't seem snarky. They are just stating what they believe the definition is. It's very easy to read emotion into an emotionless format like text. Which means it's very easy to devolve the conversation to anger very quickly.
- Kaze404 6y agoFrom that perspective, you also read emotion on my emotionless text. I was also just stating what I believe the definition is, with no more or less information than the comment I responded to.
- trianglem 6y agoReally the problem is gender isn’t.
- simonsarris 6y agoIn the English language they are: The term has been used to distinguish male and female for over 200 years, and increasingly so for the last 50 years. Of course we have proof of this. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_end=2019&year_start=1800&smoothing=3&content=male+gender%2Cfemale+gender&corpus=26&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cmale%20gender%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cfemale%20gender%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_end=2019&year_sta... Compare also: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_end=2019&year_start=1800&smoothing=3&content=male+gender%2C+female+gender&corpus=26&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cmale%20gender%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cfemale%20gender%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_end=2019&year_sta... Neologisms like "biological male/female" barely register, so I won't include them.
- User23 6y agoHistorically male and female are sexes and masculine, feminine, and neuter are genders.
- dragonwriter 6y agoHistorically, the distinction between sex, ascribed gender, and gender identity hasn't been made until very recently, with “sex” (in the sense of male vs. female) and “gender” being used as synonyms, with “gender” often preferred over “sex” simply to avoid confusion with (or just evocation of) the other (intercourse) sense of “sex”; “masculine” and “feminine” weren't used for most of history for either ascribed gender or gender identity as traits of people, but for something closer to gender expression (adherence to sex stereotypes.) (“Gender” referring to a grammatical trait, where “masculine” and “feminine” are among the possible values is an older concept, sure, but that's not really particularly relevant.)
- leephillips 6y agoExactly. I would add that, among people who are not squeamish about the word “sex”, it is the preferred term for distinguishing male and female, while “gender” is more useful in discussing the grammar of romance languages.
- trianglem 6y ago>Same as any other gender identity Stop right there. Man and woman are biological constructs. You don’t get to identify as one or the other.
- umanwizard 6y agoIt’s not clear to me what this means. I’ve never made any positive choice to be a man. I’ve never told anyone “I’m a man”. But everyone somehow concludes that I’m a man. What does it mean to “identify as” something?
- hackmiester 6y agoIt means you come to a conclusion that you are that something. This may or may not coincide with your outward appearance or anything else.
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- joshuamorton 6y ago> I’ve never made any positive choice to be a man. Do you perceive yourself as a man?
- umanwizard 6y agoI’m not sure what that means.
- joshuamorton 6y agoI'll ask the question a different way: when people perceive and address you like a man, do you feel any reason to disagree with how they address or perceive you?
- umanwizard 6y agoNo, I don’t. Is that really the entirety of “identifying as” something - not disagreeing with other people identifying you as that?
- Pfhreak 6y agoSimplified explanation that leaves out the discussion of people who are agender, genderqueer, etc.: If you conceptualize gender as 'manliness' or 'femininity', you can pretty easily see that some folks are more or less 'manly', that gender must therefore exist as a spectrum. There are men who are very feminine, and women who are quite manly, so in my mind, these spectrums have some overlap. Most folks have a pretty rigid understanding of where they fit -- they see themselves as a manly man, or ladylike, or a tomboy, etc. and that remains relatively unchanging over time. For me, it's not so simple, there are days I feel masculine and days where someone using "Mr." or "Sir" feel really viscerally wrong. That's the quick version of how I conceptualize my own gender fluidity.
- empthought 6y agoI think you might overestimate how strongly or rigidly people in general conceive of how they “fit” on a daily basis, or how strongly they link activities, dress, or title to “manliness” or “womanliness.” For a simple example, some days I want to listen to Tori Amos and cry, and other days I want to listen to Metallica and punch things, but nothing in any of this has any bearing on my identification with any gender. I have some pretty obvious male secondary sex characteristics so it would be a big problem if that caused me daily discomfort, but that doesn’t really seem to be what genderfluidity is about?
- Pfhreak 6y agoMany of us are not tightly attached to all parts of our identities. For some, they might care deeply about their identity as a devout Christian/Muslim, others might not really care. Some might care about their political party affiliation, others might not care. Some might care about their gender deeply, others might not care.
- empthought 6y agoBut for you, as gender fluid, it seems the thing you care deeply about is the ability to be free to conform or not conform to gender expectations of any particular sort? If so, isn’t this freedom something that would just be good for anyone?