11 ms·

Hanging out in trans circles (as a non-binary person myself), this seems commonly known within the community. Interesting to see research done here, but I'd be

Hanging out in trans circles (as a non-binary person myself), this seems commonly known within the community. Interesting to see research done here, but I'd be careful about over generalizing (e.g. "All trans people are neurodiverse"). Edit: Also, happy to answer questions about being non-binary (specifically, gender fluid) if folks have good faith questions.

empthought 6y ago
What is the distinguishing characteristic of someone who is gender fluid vs. someone who is not?
- anchpop 6y ago
  There isn't one, besides them identifying as genderfluid. Same as any other gender identity (like man or woman). I think this makes the terms slightly less useful but it is very important to some people that they're used this way
  - scott31 6y ago
    > Same as any other gender identity (like man or woman). I think there are some distinguishing characteristics for someone who is male vs someone who is female.
    - Kaze404 6y ago
      "Male" and "female" aren't genders.
      - empthought 6y ago
        Neither is “gender fluid,” though, is it?
      - grogenaut 6y ago
        It would be helpful if you chose to educate by linking to the definitions you are using instead of just chastising for someone not knowing the terminology you are using. The Wikipedia article for gender mentions that the terms sex and gender for biological gender/sex have flip flopped multiple times in the last 30 years. HN is supposed to be a place where people learn, not an anger pit like the rest of the web.
        hackmiester 6y ago
        I didn’t see any anger in this thread so far.
        Kaze404 6y ago
        I agree, but you can't really assume good faith from the snarky comment I responded to.
        grogenaut 6y ago
        Reading the GP again, it doesn't seem snarky. They are just stating what they believe the definition is. It's very easy to read emotion into an emotionless format like text. Which means it's very easy to devolve the conversation to anger very quickly.
        Kaze404 6y ago
        From that perspective, you also read emotion on my emotionless text. I was also just stating what I believe the definition is, with no more or less information than the comment I responded to.
      - trianglem 6y ago
        Really the problem is gender isn’t.
      - simonsarris 6y ago
        In the English language they are: The term has been used to distinguish male and female for over 200 years, and increasingly so for the last 50 years. Of course we have proof of this. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_end=2019&year_start=1800&smoothing=3&content=male+gender%2Cfemale+gender&corpus=26&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cmale%20gender%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cfemale%20gender%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_end=2019&year_sta... Compare also: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_end=2019&year_start=1800&smoothing=3&content=male+gender%2C+female+gender&corpus=26&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cmale%20gender%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cfemale%20gender%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_end=2019&year_sta... Neologisms like "biological male/female" barely register, so I won't include them.
        User23 6y ago
        Historically male and female are sexes and masculine, feminine, and neuter are genders.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
        Historically, the distinction between sex, ascribed gender, and gender identity hasn't been made until very recently, with “sex” (in the sense of male vs. female) and “gender” being used as synonyms, with “gender” often preferred over “sex” simply to avoid confusion with (or just evocation of) the other (intercourse) sense of “sex”; “masculine” and “feminine” weren't used for most of history for either ascribed gender or gender identity as traits of people, but for something closer to gender expression (adherence to sex stereotypes.) (“Gender” referring to a grammatical trait, where “masculine” and “feminine” are among the possible values is an older concept, sure, but that's not really particularly relevant.)
        leephillips 6y ago
        Exactly. I would add that, among people who are not squeamish about the word “sex”, it is the preferred term for distinguishing male and female, while “gender” is more useful in discussing the grammar of romance languages.
  - trianglem 6y ago
    >Same as any other gender identity Stop right there. Man and woman are biological constructs. You don’t get to identify as one or the other.
  - umanwizard 6y ago
    It’s not clear to me what this means. I’ve never made any positive choice to be a man. I’ve never told anyone “I’m a man”. But everyone somehow concludes that I’m a man. What does it mean to “identify as” something?
    - hackmiester 6y ago
      It means you come to a conclusion that you are that something. This may or may not coincide with your outward appearance or anything else.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - joshuamorton 6y ago
      > I’ve never made any positive choice to be a man. Do you perceive yourself as a man?
      - umanwizard 6y ago
        I’m not sure what that means.
        joshuamorton 6y ago
        I'll ask the question a different way: when people perceive and address you like a man, do you feel any reason to disagree with how they address or perceive you?
        umanwizard 6y ago
        No, I don’t. Is that really the entirety of “identifying as” something - not disagreeing with other people identifying you as that?
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  Simplified explanation that leaves out the discussion of people who are agender, genderqueer, etc.: If you conceptualize gender as 'manliness' or 'femininity', you can pretty easily see that some folks are more or less 'manly', that gender must therefore exist as a spectrum. There are men who are very feminine, and women who are quite manly, so in my mind, these spectrums have some overlap. Most folks have a pretty rigid understanding of where they fit -- they see themselves as a manly man, or ladylike, or a tomboy, etc. and that remains relatively unchanging over time. For me, it's not so simple, there are days I feel masculine and days where someone using "Mr." or "Sir" feel really viscerally wrong. That's the quick version of how I conceptualize my own gender fluidity.
  - empthought 6y ago
    I think you might overestimate how strongly or rigidly people in general conceive of how they “fit” on a daily basis, or how strongly they link activities, dress, or title to “manliness” or “womanliness.” For a simple example, some days I want to listen to Tori Amos and cry, and other days I want to listen to Metallica and punch things, but nothing in any of this has any bearing on my identification with any gender. I have some pretty obvious male secondary sex characteristics so it would be a big problem if that caused me daily discomfort, but that doesn’t really seem to be what genderfluidity is about?
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      Many of us are not tightly attached to all parts of our identities. For some, they might care deeply about their identity as a devout Christian/Muslim, others might not really care. Some might care about their political party affiliation, others might not care. Some might care about their gender deeply, others might not care.
      - empthought 6y ago
        But for you, as gender fluid, it seems the thing you care deeply about is the ability to be free to conform or not conform to gender expectations of any particular sort? If so, isn’t this freedom something that would just be good for anyone?
lemonberry 6y ago
Have you heard of Abigail Shrier's book "The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters"? She was on Joe Rogan's podcast recently though I have yet to listen to it. A quick search turned up, not surprisingly, some negative critiques and others that are more positive. If you have heard of it, or read it, I'd love to hear what you think of her position. I appreciate the offer to be part of a dialogue. I think it's important to improve understanding for people. As a white, middle aged (45) cismale I know I'm viewing a lot of this stuff through a very specific lens.
- FriendlyNormie 6y ago
  Shut the fuck up you sackless vermin. These lunatics need to be exterminated and you know it. Soon the police won’t be there to stop it.
- claudeganon 6y ago
  It don’t think it should be part of the conversation because it seems transparently little more than culture war scapegoating for an audience hungry for a moral panic. If you want a more considered text for a general audience, I’d recommend Brynn Tanehill’s, “Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Trans (But Were Afraid to Ask).” Also useful is this point-by-point, sourced rebuttal to the misinformation Rogan repeatedly spreads (which references the above text): https://www.adamconover.net/adding-evidence-to-the-discussion-of-trans-issues-on-joe-rogans-podcast/ https://www.adamconover.net/adding-evidence-to-the-discussio...
  - dx87 6y ago
    The part of the rebuttal about puberty blockers being 100% reversible seems outdated. The NHS recently said that there isn't enough information about puberty blockers to say for certain that there are no long-term side effects from their use.
  - lemonberry 6y ago
    Thanks for the link and info.
- leephillips 6y ago
nomdep 6y ago
What is the difference between being gender fluid and having some traits & preferences typically associated with the other gender?
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  Great question. For me it's that sometimes I have those traits and sometimes I don't. I don't really have a set of traits and preferences that is consistent from day to day or hour to hour. Some days I'd prefer others see me as a man, other days I find that repulsive. So, gender fluid, because my gender is dynamic and shifting. I don't always see myself as femme, or masculine, but rather shifting between and around them.
  - fock 6y ago
    but why bother with gender at all in this case?
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      The feeling of gender dysphoria is not a pleasant one. Coming to an understanding helped me rationalize and address my anxiety. Ultimately, gendered stuff is all around us and it is not so easy to "just not bother".
      - fock 6y ago
        so you are a non-transsexual transgender? or did you transition to a suitable body? because yes, gendered stuff is all around us, but in most "though" cases, it mostly seems to relate to sex, because that's something which is easily determinable for a large fraction of human beings. So your problem was that other people didn't accept you for what you are: is this really different from society not accepting that you would like to have 5 wives, your parents wishing you to be a lawyer, whilst you want to be a shepherd or any other discrimination? Why do we have to divide people on a spectrum (which also suggests that personality is a measurable, which is disturbing...) to remedy this? And why is it necessary for people to advertise their pronouns, when most of the communication, where you need that is non-personal anyway?

empthought 6y ago

What is the distinguishing characteristic of someone who is gender fluid vs. someone who is not?

anchpop 6y ago
There isn't one, besides them identifying as genderfluid. Same as any other gender identity (like man or woman). I think this makes the terms slightly less useful but it is very important to some people that they're used this way
- scott31 6y ago
  > Same as any other gender identity (like man or woman). I think there are some distinguishing characteristics for someone who is male vs someone who is female.
  - Kaze404 6y ago
    "Male" and "female" aren't genders.
    - empthought 6y ago
      Neither is “gender fluid,” though, is it?
    - grogenaut 6y ago
      It would be helpful if you chose to educate by linking to the definitions you are using instead of just chastising for someone not knowing the terminology you are using. The Wikipedia article for gender mentions that the terms sex and gender for biological gender/sex have flip flopped multiple times in the last 30 years. HN is supposed to be a place where people learn, not an anger pit like the rest of the web.
      - hackmiester 6y ago
        I didn’t see any anger in this thread so far.
      - Kaze404 6y ago
        I agree, but you can't really assume good faith from the snarky comment I responded to.
        grogenaut 6y ago
        Reading the GP again, it doesn't seem snarky. They are just stating what they believe the definition is. It's very easy to read emotion into an emotionless format like text. Which means it's very easy to devolve the conversation to anger very quickly.
        Kaze404 6y ago
        From that perspective, you also read emotion on my emotionless text. I was also just stating what I believe the definition is, with no more or less information than the comment I responded to.
    - trianglem 6y ago
      Really the problem is gender isn’t.
    - simonsarris 6y ago
      In the English language they are: The term has been used to distinguish male and female for over 200 years, and increasingly so for the last 50 years. Of course we have proof of this. https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_end=2019&year_start=1800&smoothing=3&content=male+gender%2Cfemale+gender&corpus=26&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cmale%20gender%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cfemale%20gender%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_end=2019&year_sta... Compare also: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_end=2019&year_start=1800&smoothing=3&content=male+gender%2C+female+gender&corpus=26&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cmale%20gender%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cfemale%20gender%3B%2Cc0 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?year_end=2019&year_sta... Neologisms like "biological male/female" barely register, so I won't include them.
      - User23 6y ago
        Historically male and female are sexes and masculine, feminine, and neuter are genders.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
        Historically, the distinction between sex, ascribed gender, and gender identity hasn't been made until very recently, with “sex” (in the sense of male vs. female) and “gender” being used as synonyms, with “gender” often preferred over “sex” simply to avoid confusion with (or just evocation of) the other (intercourse) sense of “sex”; “masculine” and “feminine” weren't used for most of history for either ascribed gender or gender identity as traits of people, but for something closer to gender expression (adherence to sex stereotypes.) (“Gender” referring to a grammatical trait, where “masculine” and “feminine” are among the possible values is an older concept, sure, but that's not really particularly relevant.)
        leephillips 6y ago
        Exactly. I would add that, among people who are not squeamish about the word “sex”, it is the preferred term for distinguishing male and female, while “gender” is more useful in discussing the grammar of romance languages.
- trianglem 6y ago
  >Same as any other gender identity Stop right there. Man and woman are biological constructs. You don’t get to identify as one or the other.
- umanwizard 6y ago
  It’s not clear to me what this means. I’ve never made any positive choice to be a man. I’ve never told anyone “I’m a man”. But everyone somehow concludes that I’m a man. What does it mean to “identify as” something?
  - hackmiester 6y ago
    It means you come to a conclusion that you are that something. This may or may not coincide with your outward appearance or anything else.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    > I’ve never made any positive choice to be a man. Do you perceive yourself as a man?
    - umanwizard 6y ago
      I’m not sure what that means.
      - joshuamorton 6y ago
        I'll ask the question a different way: when people perceive and address you like a man, do you feel any reason to disagree with how they address or perceive you?
        umanwizard 6y ago
        No, I don’t. Is that really the entirety of “identifying as” something - not disagreeing with other people identifying you as that?
Pfhreak 6y ago
Simplified explanation that leaves out the discussion of people who are agender, genderqueer, etc.: If you conceptualize gender as 'manliness' or 'femininity', you can pretty easily see that some folks are more or less 'manly', that gender must therefore exist as a spectrum. There are men who are very feminine, and women who are quite manly, so in my mind, these spectrums have some overlap. Most folks have a pretty rigid understanding of where they fit -- they see themselves as a manly man, or ladylike, or a tomboy, etc. and that remains relatively unchanging over time. For me, it's not so simple, there are days I feel masculine and days where someone using "Mr." or "Sir" feel really viscerally wrong. That's the quick version of how I conceptualize my own gender fluidity.
- empthought 6y ago
  I think you might overestimate how strongly or rigidly people in general conceive of how they “fit” on a daily basis, or how strongly they link activities, dress, or title to “manliness” or “womanliness.” For a simple example, some days I want to listen to Tori Amos and cry, and other days I want to listen to Metallica and punch things, but nothing in any of this has any bearing on my identification with any gender. I have some pretty obvious male secondary sex characteristics so it would be a big problem if that caused me daily discomfort, but that doesn’t really seem to be what genderfluidity is about?
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    Many of us are not tightly attached to all parts of our identities. For some, they might care deeply about their identity as a devout Christian/Muslim, others might not really care. Some might care about their political party affiliation, others might not care. Some might care about their gender deeply, others might not care.
    - empthought 6y ago
      But for you, as gender fluid, it seems the thing you care deeply about is the ability to be free to conform or not conform to gender expectations of any particular sort? If so, isn’t this freedom something that would just be good for anyone?

lemonberry 6y ago

Have you heard of Abigail Shrier's book "The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters"? She was on Joe Rogan's podcast recently though I have yet to listen to it. A quick search turned up, not surprisingly, some negative critiques and others that are more positive. If you have heard of it, or read it, I'd love to hear what you think of her position. I appreciate the offer to be part of a dialogue. I think it's important to improve understanding for people. As a white, middle aged (45) cismale I know I'm viewing a lot of this stuff through a very specific lens.

FriendlyNormie 6y ago
Shut the fuck up you sackless vermin. These lunatics need to be exterminated and you know it. Soon the police won’t be there to stop it.
claudeganon 6y ago
It don’t think it should be part of the conversation because it seems transparently little more than culture war scapegoating for an audience hungry for a moral panic. If you want a more considered text for a general audience, I’d recommend Brynn Tanehill’s, “Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Trans (But Were Afraid to Ask).” Also useful is this point-by-point, sourced rebuttal to the misinformation Rogan repeatedly spreads (which references the above text): https://www.adamconover.net/adding-evidence-to-the-discussion-of-trans-issues-on-joe-rogans-podcast/ https://www.adamconover.net/adding-evidence-to-the-discussio...
- dx87 6y ago
  The part of the rebuttal about puberty blockers being 100% reversible seems outdated. The NHS recently said that there isn't enough information about puberty blockers to say for certain that there are no long-term side effects from their use.
- lemonberry 6y ago
  Thanks for the link and info.
leephillips 6y ago

nomdep 6y ago

What is the difference between being gender fluid and having some traits & preferences typically associated with the other gender?

Pfhreak 6y ago
Great question. For me it's that sometimes I have those traits and sometimes I don't. I don't really have a set of traits and preferences that is consistent from day to day or hour to hour. Some days I'd prefer others see me as a man, other days I find that repulsive. So, gender fluid, because my gender is dynamic and shifting. I don't always see myself as femme, or masculine, but rather shifting between and around them.
- fock 6y ago
  but why bother with gender at all in this case?
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    The feeling of gender dysphoria is not a pleasant one. Coming to an understanding helped me rationalize and address my anxiety. Ultimately, gendered stuff is all around us and it is not so easy to "just not bother".
    - fock 6y ago
      so you are a non-transsexual transgender? or did you transition to a suitable body? because yes, gendered stuff is all around us, but in most "though" cases, it mostly seems to relate to sex, because that's something which is easily determinable for a large fraction of human beings. So your problem was that other people didn't accept you for what you are: is this really different from society not accepting that you would like to have 5 wives, your parents wishing you to be a lawyer, whilst you want to be a shepherd or any other discrimination? Why do we have to divide people on a spectrum (which also suggests that personality is a measurable, which is disturbing...) to remedy this? And why is it necessary for people to advertise their pronouns, when most of the communication, where you need that is non-personal anyway?