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That’s a pretty negative take on the work ethic of non-elites. While you’re correct that the institutions you mentioned select for intelligence, I’ve seen no ev

That’s a pretty negative take on the work ethic of non-elites. While you’re correct that the institutions you mentioned select for intelligence, I’ve seen no evidence in a life lived among working class and professional-class individuals that there is any significant difference in work ethic. I wonder if you’re even aware how many poor and working-class individuals work 2 full-time jobs. The reason why folks working in social services might have a different impression is that they’re primarily coming into contact with people who are in failure mode for a variety of reasons: addiction, health-issues, mental illness, etc. They are not representative of the poor and working classes in general, and their failure to maintain a strong work ethic is often impeded by their life challenges. Also, the small percentage of freeloaders out there are very good at sniffing out opportunities for taking advantage of the system. That may make them seem more common than they actually are. > but the reality is that social mobility (particularly in the West) is at a historic all time high No idea about global social mobility, it’s entirely possible it’s at an all-time high. But you’re definitely wrong about social mobility in the USA. It’s been declining for many, many decades: https://www.pnas.org/content/117/1/251 https://www.pnas.org/content/117/1/251 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_th... A few studies show that the decline in social mobility may be leveling off, but if that’s the case (and even that isn’t clear-many studies show the opposite), then almost certainly the financial crisis and COVID will reverse that trend.

dvt 6y ago
> That’s a pretty negative take on the work ethic of non-elites. Nowhere in my post did I mention elites. In fact, many of my FAANG co-workers were not elites. Tech fares much better here than, say, investment banking. > While you’re correct that the institutions you mentioned select for intelligence That's not what I said at all -- if I had to say they selected for one thing, I'd say that the institutions I mentioned probably select for conscientiousness. > Also, the small percentage of freeloaders out there are very good at sniffing out opportunities for taking advantage of the system... Again, this is spoken like someone that's never worked in social services and is used to the "social niceties" that something like an Ivy-league education or a cozy tech job offers. I'd prefer looking at this in the abstract (because studies will always be politicized), and freeloading can definitely be an optimal strategy[1]. > But you’re definitely wrong about social mobility in the USA. Oh come on, at least let's be fair. This is a contentious issue and there are disagreements here. Some say it's gone down, others say it's gone up[2]. [1] https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q3/game-theory-research-reveals-fragility-of-common-resources.html https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q3/game-theory... [2] https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/05/14/two-leading-economists-disagree-about-the-flagging-american-dream https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/05/14/two-leadi...
- monoideism 6y ago
  > That's not what I said at all Well, what did you mean by “just as smart”?? Most working class men and women are in fact fairly conscientious. The institutions you mentioned do select for higher IQ. Are you claiming that software development does not require a higher IQ than a typical non-professional job? There’s a lot of psychological research that suggests otherwise. > act, many of my FAANG co-workers were not elites. By any reasonable definition, anyone working as a software developer in a FAANG is an elite. Most of you are in the top 1% income-wise. Most of you share the same cultural values, and live in the same isolated environment (note: I’m generalizing - that may not apply to you personally). > this is spoken like someone that's never worked in social services and is used to the "social niceties" that something like an Ivy-league education or a cozy tech job offers Are you talking about me here, or the OP? If me, it’s particularly amusing. I went to a state school, never worked for a FAANG, and have actually worked in social services (for a charity, for 2 years). I have a very different view of working class work ethic than you do. Most people work hard. By the way, have you worked in the public sector, or in social services? > ...contentious issue... No, it’s really not a contentious issue. The title of the article you referenced is misleading, if you read the whole article. Heckman doesn’t claim that social mobility is going up. He just believes that the data isn’t as bad as Chetty claims it is. The vast majority of research in this area shows declining social mobility. Some of it suggests the long decline in mobility may be leveling off. None I’m aware of suggest it’s rising. Read Piketty, Chetty, and Milanovic. The data is clear. In the US, social mobility has been dropping for decades, and income/wealth inequality rising. For me personally, coming from small town USA, and in my own large extended family, I have significant anecdotal evidence to back this up.
  - dvt 6y ago
    > For me personally, coming from small town USA, and in my own large extended family, I have significant anecdotal evidence to back this up. You make some fair points, and maybe our life experiences are just vastly different. Having grown up in abject poverty (post-Communist Eastern Europe), migrated to the States when I was 11 with my family, and watched my parents struggle and, to a certain extent, "make it" in America, the idea that there's no social mobility in the US is foreign to me. And this applies to my extended family as well. Keep in mind that my grandparents don't even have 4 years of school, so it's not like I'm some blue-blood elite. The opportunities that the US gave me and my family make me immensely proud to call myself an American.

dvt 6y ago

> That’s a pretty negative take on the work ethic of non-elites. Nowhere in my post did I mention elites. In fact, many of my FAANG co-workers were not elites. Tech fares much better here than, say, investment banking. > While you’re correct that the institutions you mentioned select for intelligence That's not what I said at all -- if I had to say they selected for one thing, I'd say that the institutions I mentioned probably select for conscientiousness. > Also, the small percentage of freeloaders out there are very good at sniffing out opportunities for taking advantage of the system... Again, this is spoken like someone that's never worked in social services and is used to the "social niceties" that something like an Ivy-league education or a cozy tech job offers. I'd prefer looking at this in the abstract (because studies will always be politicized), and freeloading can definitely be an optimal strategy[1]. > But you’re definitely wrong about social mobility in the USA. Oh come on, at least let's be fair. This is a contentious issue and there are disagreements here. Some say it's gone down, others say it's gone up[2]. [1] https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q3/game-theory-research-reveals-fragility-of-common-resources.html https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q3/game-theory... [2] https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/05/14/two-leading-economists-disagree-about-the-flagging-american-dream https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/05/14/two-leadi...

monoideism 6y ago
> That's not what I said at all Well, what did you mean by “just as smart”?? Most working class men and women are in fact fairly conscientious. The institutions you mentioned do select for higher IQ. Are you claiming that software development does not require a higher IQ than a typical non-professional job? There’s a lot of psychological research that suggests otherwise. > act, many of my FAANG co-workers were not elites. By any reasonable definition, anyone working as a software developer in a FAANG is an elite. Most of you are in the top 1% income-wise. Most of you share the same cultural values, and live in the same isolated environment (note: I’m generalizing - that may not apply to you personally). > this is spoken like someone that's never worked in social services and is used to the "social niceties" that something like an Ivy-league education or a cozy tech job offers Are you talking about me here, or the OP? If me, it’s particularly amusing. I went to a state school, never worked for a FAANG, and have actually worked in social services (for a charity, for 2 years). I have a very different view of working class work ethic than you do. Most people work hard. By the way, have you worked in the public sector, or in social services? > ...contentious issue... No, it’s really not a contentious issue. The title of the article you referenced is misleading, if you read the whole article. Heckman doesn’t claim that social mobility is going up. He just believes that the data isn’t as bad as Chetty claims it is. The vast majority of research in this area shows declining social mobility. Some of it suggests the long decline in mobility may be leveling off. None I’m aware of suggest it’s rising. Read Piketty, Chetty, and Milanovic. The data is clear. In the US, social mobility has been dropping for decades, and income/wealth inequality rising. For me personally, coming from small town USA, and in my own large extended family, I have significant anecdotal evidence to back this up.
- dvt 6y ago
  > For me personally, coming from small town USA, and in my own large extended family, I have significant anecdotal evidence to back this up. You make some fair points, and maybe our life experiences are just vastly different. Having grown up in abject poverty (post-Communist Eastern Europe), migrated to the States when I was 11 with my family, and watched my parents struggle and, to a certain extent, "make it" in America, the idea that there's no social mobility in the US is foreign to me. And this applies to my extended family as well. Keep in mind that my grandparents don't even have 4 years of school, so it's not like I'm some blue-blood elite. The opportunities that the US gave me and my family make me immensely proud to call myself an American.