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> You want this whole pie in your body right now, and also you want to be two sizes smaller by next summer. Isn't this more like a fight between instinct and r

> You want this whole pie in your body right now, and also you want to be two sizes smaller by next summer. Isn't this more like a fight between instinct and rationality? Wanting the pie is rarely a rational decision, while on the other hand wanting to be healthy so you can live longer is absolutely rational. Hence willpower is one's ability to rationally control their own anamalistic instincts and emotions.

dreeves 6y ago
Yeah, it's surprisingly controversial but I agree, your long-term self is usually the rational one. Commitment devices are all about forcing/incentivizing your short-term self to do what your long-term self deems best. Sometimes people are too extreme with that, like intentionally living in near poverty their whole life in order to save as much as humanly possible for retirement, or suffering through a PhD program they hate because they think it will eventually be worth it. But those are the exceptions. Mostly it's the other way around, as you say. People undermine their own long-term interests with procrastination or impetuousness.
Godel_unicode 6y ago
Wanting to eat things that are delicious because you enjoy the flavor sounds perfectly rational to me. I'll enjoy the anticipation while I'm getting it, I'll enjoy the experience when I'm eating it, and a piece of pie is not going to stop me from being healthy by itself. Sure wanting to eat the whole pie might be irrational, but that's seldom the way people think about it. I can't eat a whole pie at once, but I can definitely eat the bite on my fork, add one more slice to my plate, etc. This mistakes thinking long-term vs thinking marginally, which is the larger point being made.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  It's not rational when at the same time the fact that you're overweight with a heart condition and cholesterol problem that could kill you is a flashing through your brain.
  - sukilot 6y ago
    "rationality" is about how your reason about your goals. Goals themselves cannot be rational or irrational, even if they are in conflict.
    - ineedasername 6y ago
      By that definition everything is rational as long as you have reasons for your goal. Logic has to enter it too, and reasons aren't always logical. Having a reason doesn't make it rational.
      - elliekelly 6y ago
        I’m not sure rational and logical have a 1:1 meaning as you assume. For example, if I look both ways before crossing a one-way street, I think I would call that rational but I’m not sure I would call that logical. I could certainly be convinced otherwise but it’s interesting to think about.
        corin_ 6y ago
        Surely it depends on how the decision to look both ways was made? If you do it out of instinct and immediately think "oh yeah, forgot I only need to look one way" then it wasn't logical. But if you know it's one way, yet think "I've witnessed bikes and even cars going the wrong way before, better check both directions" that seems like it could be a perfectly logical action.
      - Godel_unicode 6y ago
        Having a reason you disagree with doesn't make it irrational.
        ineedasername 6y ago
        Is short term satisfaction a rational choice over increased chances of death? That was the context here. It's also a fairly well recognized behavioral pattern of irrational decision making. A reason alone doesn't make something rational. A paranoid thought that aliens are trying to abduct you may be backed up by the reason "because secret weather balloons are tacking me". It's a reason. It's not a rational one. Having a reason is not synonymous with being rational.
- gauchojs 6y ago
  Nowadays though, as soon as I finish eating some crap that doesn't digest that well, I'm already regretting it.. since it makes me feel bad. And I still go back to eating it a few days later..
steanne 6y ago
> want to be two sizes smaller by next summer is not necessarily > wanting to be healthy so you can live longer the behavior necessary to lose the weight would have positive results toward a goal that IS rational, but the impulse that actually spurs the behavior necessary to be two sizes smaller by next summer could just as easily be "i want to wear this dress to my sister's wedding next summer and they don't make it in my size."

dreeves 6y ago

Yeah, it's surprisingly controversial but I agree, your long-term self is usually the rational one. Commitment devices are all about forcing/incentivizing your short-term self to do what your long-term self deems best. Sometimes people are too extreme with that, like intentionally living in near poverty their whole life in order to save as much as humanly possible for retirement, or suffering through a PhD program they hate because they think it will eventually be worth it. But those are the exceptions. Mostly it's the other way around, as you say. People undermine their own long-term interests with procrastination or impetuousness.

Godel_unicode 6y ago

Wanting to eat things that are delicious because you enjoy the flavor sounds perfectly rational to me. I'll enjoy the anticipation while I'm getting it, I'll enjoy the experience when I'm eating it, and a piece of pie is not going to stop me from being healthy by itself. Sure wanting to eat the whole pie might be irrational, but that's seldom the way people think about it. I can't eat a whole pie at once, but I can definitely eat the bite on my fork, add one more slice to my plate, etc. This mistakes thinking long-term vs thinking marginally, which is the larger point being made.

ineedasername 6y ago
It's not rational when at the same time the fact that you're overweight with a heart condition and cholesterol problem that could kill you is a flashing through your brain.
- sukilot 6y ago
  "rationality" is about how your reason about your goals. Goals themselves cannot be rational or irrational, even if they are in conflict.
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    By that definition everything is rational as long as you have reasons for your goal. Logic has to enter it too, and reasons aren't always logical. Having a reason doesn't make it rational.
    - elliekelly 6y ago
      I’m not sure rational and logical have a 1:1 meaning as you assume. For example, if I look both ways before crossing a one-way street, I think I would call that rational but I’m not sure I would call that logical. I could certainly be convinced otherwise but it’s interesting to think about.
      - corin_ 6y ago
        Surely it depends on how the decision to look both ways was made? If you do it out of instinct and immediately think "oh yeah, forgot I only need to look one way" then it wasn't logical. But if you know it's one way, yet think "I've witnessed bikes and even cars going the wrong way before, better check both directions" that seems like it could be a perfectly logical action.
    - Godel_unicode 6y ago
      Having a reason you disagree with doesn't make it irrational.
      - ineedasername 6y ago
        Is short term satisfaction a rational choice over increased chances of death? That was the context here. It's also a fairly well recognized behavioral pattern of irrational decision making. A reason alone doesn't make something rational. A paranoid thought that aliens are trying to abduct you may be backed up by the reason "because secret weather balloons are tacking me". It's a reason. It's not a rational one. Having a reason is not synonymous with being rational.
gauchojs 6y ago
Nowadays though, as soon as I finish eating some crap that doesn't digest that well, I'm already regretting it.. since it makes me feel bad. And I still go back to eating it a few days later..

steanne 6y ago

> want to be two sizes smaller by next summer is not necessarily > wanting to be healthy so you can live longer the behavior necessary to lose the weight would have positive results toward a goal that IS rational, but the impulse that actually spurs the behavior necessary to be two sizes smaller by next summer could just as easily be "i want to wear this dress to my sister's wedding next summer and they don't make it in my size."