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Reminds me of a quote from Chesterton: “When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing

Reminds me of a quote from Chesterton: “When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing in anything.” The quote is deeper than it might appear and presupposes that you understand that institutions are not the _sources_ of meaning as the article suggests, but, when legitimate, guard some of the things that _are_ meaningful. Not a projection of fiction on a dead existence, but actually meaningful and intelligibly so (i.e., not some kind of mere passing feeling). Ideologies have attempted to create simulated meaning time and again, silly beliefs that drive people into madness, great and small. They have always failed because the "meaning" they provided was bogus, a deception that might animate people for some time, but is ultimately a fiction that ceases to maintain a lasting grip precisely because it is false. Only someone crippled by nihilism, stupidity, or opportunistic vice could latch onto something like that. The trouble is that we have been sliding into nihilism for some time. Nietzsche observed this slide during his era. He did not believe in God himself, but he saw atheism as a dreadful, horrible thing. In his parable of the madman, the madman frantically asks the people in town where God is. They are amused at the spectacle, suggesting in jest that perhaps God is hiding beneath something over here, or other there. The townsfolk represent the people of his day, the atheists of the 19th century. The madman, of course, realizes the consequences of God's "death" the horror of which the townsfolk have not yet come to understand. They are still dwelling in that twilight of the idols, fragmented and perverted pieces of the whole that was once held together by God before the earth was unchained from the sun and lost its orientation (Nietzsche gave the cult of Science some noteworthy attention as an example of one of these idols). The twilight does, sooner or later, come to an end, of course, and that's when even the idols can no longer pacify our fears. I think most people are like those townsfolk. True nihilism is unbearable. Anyone who claims otherwise is like the foolish teenager who is merely spiting his parents in an act of rebellion. Some of us sense the nihilism festering in our souls and begin to attach ourselves to various causes, fads, fashions, distractions. Anything to avert our gaze from the horrific void within us and before us. And America has always been a land of heretics (to borrow a characterization from Douthat), so perhaps the diversity of bizarre superstitions should be greater in the US than elsewhere. At the same time The "mainstream" pop culture is also vacuous, commercial, ideological, and stupid, itself dripping with hedonistic escapism from nihilism as much as any fringe movement (you should also expect a ascetic reaction for every hedonistic indulgence; each excess breeds its corresponding deficiency). Actually, we are in the throes of a kind of new gnosticism, a new Albigensian movement wherein the "true meaning" of the world, the "true self", is beyond the world of facts and can in fact contradict the facts. The facts are an illusion, not the "really real". They're "socially constructed" much like the material world is the deceptive construction of the evil creator god of the Old Testament, at least according to the gnostics. It is a dangerous, noxious amalgamation of pride and delusion, a slide into self-destruction, something Man has always excelled at. It is not unreasonable to think that gnosticism is, for many, an attempt to escape their nihilism into a world of pure imagination, giving their perverted appetites an inviolable infallibility and sanctity. We don't need AI and robots to create the Matrix. Many of us are in it now.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
0134340 6y ago
>When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing in anything.” That quote is deceptive though and and it's sometimes used, as in your case, to push religious propaganda. For every secular view you'll likely find a theistic view with many commonalities. Theism doesn't stop people from justifying or believing in many of the things agnostics do because out of thousands of denominations of thousands of theistic religions of thousands of gods and thousands of years, theistic belief is just as varied as non-theistic belief. And often they're just as vague and meaningless while virtue-signalling as something more meaningful and sometimes the love they espouse is something committed only for that tribe or out of fear of gods rather secular motives which may often be for the tribe but not because they feel they have to. Sorry if I seem course but I'm tired of this meaningless 'life has no meaning without belief in gods' trope pervade my favorite forum for which I'd rather view tech news and not be denigrated for not having found any believable gods yet. Nihilism isn't defined by lack of belief in gods.
- jariel 6y ago
  " and it's sometimes used, as in your case, to push religious propaganda." A comment is not 'propaganda'. Unless your comment is 'Atheist Propaganda'. Seriously. "Nihilism isn't defined by lack of belief in gods." Fine, but that doesn't take away anything about what he said about Nihlism. There is something more mundane about the quote, and that is the psychology of people who are willing to believe truly crazy stuff, and there is a lot going on there, probably worth study.
  - 0134340 6y ago
    >A comment is not 'propaganda'. If you're going for intellectual honesty, "a comment can be propaganda." But in this case it has been as propaganda if going by the typical definition of "the systematic propagation of a doctrine". Of which atheism or agnosticism have none and more often than not, in the west it's atheistic ideologies that were more systemically pushed by establishment as propaganda than atheistic by a large margin. So it's fair to say it's often used as propaganda, this specific quote I've personally witnessed used as such many times and it reeks of self-righteousness. >Fine, but that doesn't take away anything about what he said about Nihlism. And so what did he say about nihilism? Your criticism of AGNB's interviewees seems to be that they're nihilistic. If they were truly nihilistic, you could argue, they'd be at home sulking that there's no point in doing those things but they all seem truly motivated to do various things. I don't get this offense at nihilism when it's one of the most benign ideologies to ever exist. How many people have died from people who had no motive or saw no point in action? Nihilism is void of motive. It's when you have both motive and ideologies is when many people get killed. In that case you could just as easily rail against ideologues. >and that is the psychology of people who are willing to believe truly crazy stuff Maybe they see all the craziness in the world and only become a reflection or amplification of it. We can't also forget all the craziness in the theistic religions which cause people to do worse things than coordinating over silly ideas. I wouldn't condone all the "craziness" but I can't generalize and denigrate it either. This craziness, as you may see, represents a lot of creativeness and originality that you can find in man and many good things come from it, both productive and what you might see as non-productive. And if it's the "meaningless" fun they're having at harmless conventions, it isn't meaningless if it's fun. Fun has meaning in giving people reprieve from stressors, which ultimately helps us be more productive. And if not, oh well. You wind up with people who've just enjoyed themselves for apparently nothing. We could get deep into existential philosophy if you like but I think you get the point. You can look at many things as shallow but often, like with everything in the world, there is more to it than what's on the surface and more meaning in it than you may see. Because you don't see meaning in something doesn't mean it's not there.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

0134340 6y ago

>When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing in anything.” That quote is deceptive though and and it's sometimes used, as in your case, to push religious propaganda. For every secular view you'll likely find a theistic view with many commonalities. Theism doesn't stop people from justifying or believing in many of the things agnostics do because out of thousands of denominations of thousands of theistic religions of thousands of gods and thousands of years, theistic belief is just as varied as non-theistic belief. And often they're just as vague and meaningless while virtue-signalling as something more meaningful and sometimes the love they espouse is something committed only for that tribe or out of fear of gods rather secular motives which may often be for the tribe but not because they feel they have to. Sorry if I seem course but I'm tired of this meaningless 'life has no meaning without belief in gods' trope pervade my favorite forum for which I'd rather view tech news and not be denigrated for not having found any believable gods yet. Nihilism isn't defined by lack of belief in gods.

jariel 6y ago
" and it's sometimes used, as in your case, to push religious propaganda." A comment is not 'propaganda'. Unless your comment is 'Atheist Propaganda'. Seriously. "Nihilism isn't defined by lack of belief in gods." Fine, but that doesn't take away anything about what he said about Nihlism. There is something more mundane about the quote, and that is the psychology of people who are willing to believe truly crazy stuff, and there is a lot going on there, probably worth study.
- 0134340 6y ago
  >A comment is not 'propaganda'. If you're going for intellectual honesty, "a comment can be propaganda." But in this case it has been as propaganda if going by the typical definition of "the systematic propagation of a doctrine". Of which atheism or agnosticism have none and more often than not, in the west it's atheistic ideologies that were more systemically pushed by establishment as propaganda than atheistic by a large margin. So it's fair to say it's often used as propaganda, this specific quote I've personally witnessed used as such many times and it reeks of self-righteousness. >Fine, but that doesn't take away anything about what he said about Nihlism. And so what did he say about nihilism? Your criticism of AGNB's interviewees seems to be that they're nihilistic. If they were truly nihilistic, you could argue, they'd be at home sulking that there's no point in doing those things but they all seem truly motivated to do various things. I don't get this offense at nihilism when it's one of the most benign ideologies to ever exist. How many people have died from people who had no motive or saw no point in action? Nihilism is void of motive. It's when you have both motive and ideologies is when many people get killed. In that case you could just as easily rail against ideologues. >and that is the psychology of people who are willing to believe truly crazy stuff Maybe they see all the craziness in the world and only become a reflection or amplification of it. We can't also forget all the craziness in the theistic religions which cause people to do worse things than coordinating over silly ideas. I wouldn't condone all the "craziness" but I can't generalize and denigrate it either. This craziness, as you may see, represents a lot of creativeness and originality that you can find in man and many good things come from it, both productive and what you might see as non-productive. And if it's the "meaningless" fun they're having at harmless conventions, it isn't meaningless if it's fun. Fun has meaning in giving people reprieve from stressors, which ultimately helps us be more productive. And if not, oh well. You wind up with people who've just enjoyed themselves for apparently nothing. We could get deep into existential philosophy if you like but I think you get the point. You can look at many things as shallow but often, like with everything in the world, there is more to it than what's on the surface and more meaning in it than you may see. Because you don't see meaning in something doesn't mean it's not there.