7 ms·

So he did wrong because of the “potential” for abuse, even though the woman involved had no complaints, and even stated that there was nothing abusive in the re

So he did wrong because of the “potential” for abuse, even though the woman involved had no complaints, and even stated that there was nothing abusive in the relationship?

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
Just because the relationship wasn't coerced (one form of abuse) doesn't make it appropriate. As noted, its a very bad idea to 'go there' because of the confusion of further favors (recommendations/appointments) with sexual favors. Its reasonable for an institution to discourage this kind of relationship. Just like many private corporations do.
- sukilot 6y ago
  It's called a "conflict of interest" and is simply handled by recusal.
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    But a Professor's recommendation is very valuable - in some industries, the only path to employment. The temptation to forego recusal is large, especially for a valued graduate student. Unequal relationships (mentor/student etc) are so full of pitfalls, they've been forbidden by many, many institutions.
    - sukilot 6y ago
      What industry relies on a recommendation from a Masters degree advisor of someone who has a PhD from a different University? And even if that's true, the problem is the discrimination practiced by the employer, not the advisor. In corporations, supervisors are banned from giving recommendations for former employees, due to conflict of interest concerns.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  I don’t understand these remarks. Is the idea that the victim wasn’t perfectly professional and therefore deserved this clear and overt overreach? We rightly mock “her skirt was too short” justifications for sexual assault—I don’t see how this line of argumentation differs.
jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago
Yes. You can have a professional relationship, or a sexual one. The former precludes the possibility of the latter, and the responsibility is squarely on the person with more authority to behave properly with respect to this distinction.
- rndgermandude 6y ago
  Does this mean that people who get married and later decide to run a business together should get divorced? Does this mean for example that the sqlite.org creators wife is evil because she is (technically) his superior, being the CEO and owner of the company he works for? I really do not like such generalizations. Yeah, when there is a direct supervisor/underlying professional relationship and a romantic relationship develops, then things can get murky. And yeah, there is potential for supervisors to abuse their status to attempt coercing the other person, sure. And this has to be carefully considered and recognized so such abuses can be detected early and stopped. That still doesn't make any and every professional relationship that turns into a romantic one "wrong". The number of romantic relationships that originate from workplaces is 15-25% depending on survey and locale; I wouldn't call all those people "wrong" (or at least half of those people). Moreover, this guy from the article didn't even have a professional and romantic relationship at the same time. He had one then the other.
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    > Does this mean that people who get married and later decide to run a business together should get divorced? Does this mean for example that the sqlite.org creators wife is evil because she is (technically) his superior, being the CEO and owner of the company he works for? Definitely not, but the rules are sometimes written in a byzantine manner. This example is from Canada: Dental hygienist loses licence for treating wife, ruled as ‘sexual abuser’ https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2019/09/13/dental-hygienist-loses-licence-for-treating-wife-ruled-as-sexual-abuser.html https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2019/09/13/dental-hygien...
    - DangitBobby 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

So he did wrong because of the “potential” for abuse, even though the woman involved had no complaints, and even stated that there was nothing abusive in the relationship?

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

Just because the relationship wasn't coerced (one form of abuse) doesn't make it appropriate. As noted, its a very bad idea to 'go there' because of the confusion of further favors (recommendations/appointments) with sexual favors. Its reasonable for an institution to discourage this kind of relationship. Just like many private corporations do.

sukilot 6y ago
It's called a "conflict of interest" and is simply handled by recusal.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  But a Professor's recommendation is very valuable - in some industries, the only path to employment. The temptation to forego recusal is large, especially for a valued graduate student. Unequal relationships (mentor/student etc) are so full of pitfalls, they've been forbidden by many, many institutions.
  - sukilot 6y ago
    What industry relies on a recommendation from a Masters degree advisor of someone who has a PhD from a different University? And even if that's true, the problem is the discrimination practiced by the employer, not the advisor. In corporations, supervisors are banned from giving recommendations for former employees, due to conflict of interest concerns.
throwaway894345 6y ago
I don’t understand these remarks. Is the idea that the victim wasn’t perfectly professional and therefore deserved this clear and overt overreach? We rightly mock “her skirt was too short” justifications for sexual assault—I don’t see how this line of argumentation differs.

jasonwatkinspdx 6y ago

Yes. You can have a professional relationship, or a sexual one. The former precludes the possibility of the latter, and the responsibility is squarely on the person with more authority to behave properly with respect to this distinction.

rndgermandude 6y ago
Does this mean that people who get married and later decide to run a business together should get divorced? Does this mean for example that the sqlite.org creators wife is evil because she is (technically) his superior, being the CEO and owner of the company he works for? I really do not like such generalizations. Yeah, when there is a direct supervisor/underlying professional relationship and a romantic relationship develops, then things can get murky. And yeah, there is potential for supervisors to abuse their status to attempt coercing the other person, sure. And this has to be carefully considered and recognized so such abuses can be detected early and stopped. That still doesn't make any and every professional relationship that turns into a romantic one "wrong". The number of romantic relationships that originate from workplaces is 15-25% depending on survey and locale; I wouldn't call all those people "wrong" (or at least half of those people). Moreover, this guy from the article didn't even have a professional and romantic relationship at the same time. He had one then the other.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  > Does this mean that people who get married and later decide to run a business together should get divorced? Does this mean for example that the sqlite.org creators wife is evil because she is (technically) his superior, being the CEO and owner of the company he works for? Definitely not, but the rules are sometimes written in a byzantine manner. This example is from Canada: Dental hygienist loses licence for treating wife, ruled as ‘sexual abuser’ https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2019/09/13/dental-hygienist-loses-licence-for-treating-wife-ruled-as-sexual-abuser.html https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2019/09/13/dental-hygien...
  - DangitBobby 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]