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> Just wondering, how do you vet the people that apply? I can imagine a lot of people would love to "earn" a free 2k a month and would happily play along doing

by dvt 6y ago

> Just wondering, how do you vet the people that apply? I can imagine a lot of people would love to "earn" a free 2k a month and would happily play along doing the bare minimum amount of work required. I think people that never worked in the public sector, particularly in something like social services, overestimate the goodness (for the lack of a better word) of average people. People that do this usually come from highly-competitive and privileged backgrounds -- top tier universities, FAANG jobs, etc. And the assumption is that "anyone else" could have made it, too! Everyone is just as stubborn, just as motivated, and just as smart. But FAANG jobs and top-tier universities are self-selecting. There's a nugget of truth here, and we shouldn't forget what Rawls taught us about the Veil of Ignorance[1], but the reality is that social mobility (particularly in the West) is at a historic all time high. I'm not saying don't donate or don't give back (as a Christian, I feel a moral obligation, in fact, to donate to the less fortunate), but just that implementing welfare policies or -- as @songzme did -- giving resources away, is pretty tricky. Not only do you want to avoid the Free-rider problem[2], but you also want to make sure that people won't end up being wholly dependent on the resources they're the beneficiaries of. [1] https://fs.blog/2017/10/veil-ignorance/ https://fs.blog/2017/10/veil-ignorance/ [2] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-rider/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-rider/

songzme 6y ago
You comment was downvoted but I upvoted it because you bring up a valid point. I've noticed first hand the free-rider problem and I have mixed feelings. I thought it was interesting that all students with the free-rider symptoms did not feel good about free-riding. They tried to help out and feel bad when we meet for 1-1 and they haven't done much. Sometimes, I feel like I'm actually fighting against FAANG because these companies are spending billions trying to capture as much of my students' attention as possible and I have to spend more time helping manage my students out of these distractions. I'm actually starting to wonder if the free-rider problem exists because of FAANG creating addictive content and the media glorifying a certain lifestyle. If students were not exposed to these distractions, would they still be free-riding? I honestly don't think so and my next year's plan is to try and simulate this.
- kome 6y ago
  The economy of distraction is indeed a fucked up economy... there are just 24h in a day. And we have billionaires competing for our attention. Creating opium-like content and experiences (tv, social media, videogames). I wonder myself how deal with that in a systemic level. A society of consumers is bad... but a society that is a audience is worse.
gwenzek 6y ago
I think your wrong about the "all time high social mobility" my understanding is that the peak was reach 40 years ago. I'm currently reading Thomas Piketty on the subject
- dvt 6y ago
  40 years ago, most of Eastern Europe was under North Korea-like Communism, China was still enforcing the one-child policy, and South Africa was still under Apartheid. Not to mention the looming fear of nuclear annihilation. I’m not sure how 40 years ago, we were better off. But I’ll look into Thomas Piketty.
monoideism 6y ago
That’s a pretty negative take on the work ethic of non-elites. While you’re correct that the institutions you mentioned select for intelligence, I’ve seen no evidence in a life lived among working class and professional-class individuals that there is any significant difference in work ethic. I wonder if you’re even aware how many poor and working-class individuals work 2 full-time jobs. The reason why folks working in social services might have a different impression is that they’re primarily coming into contact with people who are in failure mode for a variety of reasons: addiction, health-issues, mental illness, etc. They are not representative of the poor and working classes in general, and their failure to maintain a strong work ethic is often impeded by their life challenges. Also, the small percentage of freeloaders out there are very good at sniffing out opportunities for taking advantage of the system. That may make them seem more common than they actually are. > but the reality is that social mobility (particularly in the West) is at a historic all time high No idea about global social mobility, it’s entirely possible it’s at an all-time high. But you’re definitely wrong about social mobility in the USA. It’s been declining for many, many decades: https://www.pnas.org/content/117/1/251 https://www.pnas.org/content/117/1/251 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_th... A few studies show that the decline in social mobility may be leveling off, but if that’s the case (and even that isn’t clear-many studies show the opposite), then almost certainly the financial crisis and COVID will reverse that trend.
- dvt 6y ago
  > That’s a pretty negative take on the work ethic of non-elites. Nowhere in my post did I mention elites. In fact, many of my FAANG co-workers were not elites. Tech fares much better here than, say, investment banking. > While you’re correct that the institutions you mentioned select for intelligence That's not what I said at all -- if I had to say they selected for one thing, I'd say that the institutions I mentioned probably select for conscientiousness. > Also, the small percentage of freeloaders out there are very good at sniffing out opportunities for taking advantage of the system... Again, this is spoken like someone that's never worked in social services and is used to the "social niceties" that something like an Ivy-league education or a cozy tech job offers. I'd prefer looking at this in the abstract (because studies will always be politicized), and freeloading can definitely be an optimal strategy[1]. > But you’re definitely wrong about social mobility in the USA. Oh come on, at least let's be fair. This is a contentious issue and there are disagreements here. Some say it's gone down, others say it's gone up[2]. [1] https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q3/game-theory-research-reveals-fragility-of-common-resources.html https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q3/game-theory... [2] https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/05/14/two-leading-economists-disagree-about-the-flagging-american-dream https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/05/14/two-leadi...

by dvt 6y ago

songzme 6y ago

You comment was downvoted but I upvoted it because you bring up a valid point. I've noticed first hand the free-rider problem and I have mixed feelings. I thought it was interesting that all students with the free-rider symptoms did not feel good about free-riding. They tried to help out and feel bad when we meet for 1-1 and they haven't done much. Sometimes, I feel like I'm actually fighting against FAANG because these companies are spending billions trying to capture as much of my students' attention as possible and I have to spend more time helping manage my students out of these distractions. I'm actually starting to wonder if the free-rider problem exists because of FAANG creating addictive content and the media glorifying a certain lifestyle. If students were not exposed to these distractions, would they still be free-riding? I honestly don't think so and my next year's plan is to try and simulate this.

kome 6y ago
The economy of distraction is indeed a fucked up economy... there are just 24h in a day. And we have billionaires competing for our attention. Creating opium-like content and experiences (tv, social media, videogames). I wonder myself how deal with that in a systemic level. A society of consumers is bad... but a society that is a audience is worse.

gwenzek 6y ago

I think your wrong about the "all time high social mobility" my understanding is that the peak was reach 40 years ago. I'm currently reading Thomas Piketty on the subject

dvt 6y ago
40 years ago, most of Eastern Europe was under North Korea-like Communism, China was still enforcing the one-child policy, and South Africa was still under Apartheid. Not to mention the looming fear of nuclear annihilation. I’m not sure how 40 years ago, we were better off. But I’ll look into Thomas Piketty.

monoideism 6y ago

That’s a pretty negative take on the work ethic of non-elites. While you’re correct that the institutions you mentioned select for intelligence, I’ve seen no evidence in a life lived among working class and professional-class individuals that there is any significant difference in work ethic. I wonder if you’re even aware how many poor and working-class individuals work 2 full-time jobs. The reason why folks working in social services might have a different impression is that they’re primarily coming into contact with people who are in failure mode for a variety of reasons: addiction, health-issues, mental illness, etc. They are not representative of the poor and working classes in general, and their failure to maintain a strong work ethic is often impeded by their life challenges. Also, the small percentage of freeloaders out there are very good at sniffing out opportunities for taking advantage of the system. That may make them seem more common than they actually are. > but the reality is that social mobility (particularly in the West) is at a historic all time high No idea about global social mobility, it’s entirely possible it’s at an all-time high. But you’re definitely wrong about social mobility in the USA. It’s been declining for many, many decades: https://www.pnas.org/content/117/1/251 https://www.pnas.org/content/117/1/251 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_th... A few studies show that the decline in social mobility may be leveling off, but if that’s the case (and even that isn’t clear-many studies show the opposite), then almost certainly the financial crisis and COVID will reverse that trend.

dvt 6y ago
> That’s a pretty negative take on the work ethic of non-elites. Nowhere in my post did I mention elites. In fact, many of my FAANG co-workers were not elites. Tech fares much better here than, say, investment banking. > While you’re correct that the institutions you mentioned select for intelligence That's not what I said at all -- if I had to say they selected for one thing, I'd say that the institutions I mentioned probably select for conscientiousness. > Also, the small percentage of freeloaders out there are very good at sniffing out opportunities for taking advantage of the system... Again, this is spoken like someone that's never worked in social services and is used to the "social niceties" that something like an Ivy-league education or a cozy tech job offers. I'd prefer looking at this in the abstract (because studies will always be politicized), and freeloading can definitely be an optimal strategy[1]. > But you’re definitely wrong about social mobility in the USA. Oh come on, at least let's be fair. This is a contentious issue and there are disagreements here. Some say it's gone down, others say it's gone up[2]. [1] https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q3/game-theory-research-reveals-fragility-of-common-resources.html https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/releases/2016/Q3/game-theory... [2] https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/05/14/two-leading-economists-disagree-about-the-flagging-american-dream https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/05/14/two-leadi...