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Corporations are "people" when it comes to their thirst for massive political influence, but just when they get into legal trouble, they are suddenly NOT a pers

by papito 6y ago

Corporations are "people" when it comes to their thirst for massive political influence, but just when they get into legal trouble, they are suddenly NOT a person, but a vague multi-layered blob, impossible to prosecute.

dahfizz 6y ago
I think you're a little confused... > but just when they get into legal trouble, they are suddenly NOT a person, but a vague multi-layered blob, impossible to prosecute. This is exactly why corporations are legally people. We can prosecute the whole blob instead of trying to assign blame to individuals. To see how this works, take a look at People v Rochester Ry. Light co (NY 1909)[1]. A corporation killed someone through negligence, but nobody was ever punished because a corporation was not considered a legal person and it was impossible to reach into the vague blob and charge individuals. [1]https://cite.case.law/nys/114/755/ https://cite.case.law/nys/114/755/
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- papito 6y ago
  I am confused? Effectively, the last criminal prosecution of a corporate entity where actual people went to jail was Robert Mueller's team vs Enron. After that, big money learned their lessons, plugged all the holes in their ships and now it's nearly impossible to do the same again.
  - dahfizz 6y ago
    Yup, you're definitely confused. The people who went to jail as a result of the enron scandal (fastow) were charged as individuals. You can't charge a corporation and then have other people serve jail time on it's behalf. If jail time is the only thing that satiates you, then you need to clearly show that an individual broke the law. Failing that, we have the ability to charge the whole corporation to make sure that they are still held liable.
    - stingraycharles 6y ago
      I think it’s not productive calling each other confused, because I think what’s going on is that you’re both approaching this from a different perspective.
    - papito 6y ago
      In a working system, yes. In the America that we have today, I can crime all I want, behind a wall of indirection, lawyers, and preferential treatment of the Church of Business. It requires prosecutors with a special set of skills, perseverance, and resources, which we simply don't have. Mountains of corporate money is flowing into the government, thanks to stuff like Citizens United (a nuclear bomb under American politics), and absolutely out of control lobbying, creating a castrated government that simply cannot or wants to do anything.
- rtlfe 6y ago
  > I think you're a little confused... FWIW starting a conversation that way is going to put people in a defensive mindset and make them less likely to properly consider what you have to say.
  - stingraycharles 6y ago
    Yep, it’s just noise in the discussion, and doesn’t add any value other than putting the other person on defense mode. Proper discussions are difficult though, but i learned that starting out with acknowledging positive things, and most certainly stick to facts, not attacking the people you’re talking with.
  - kerng 6y ago
    That's why I like HN comment threads. So many good examples on how to make progress in discussions and conversations, and even analysis of why certain behavior is counter-productive
- underwater 6y ago
  If an individual kills someone they will be arrested and imprisoned. If a corporation kills someone they may be fined a token amount or have a pay restitution. Hardly equivalent.

by papito 6y ago

dahfizz 6y ago

I think you're a little confused... > but just when they get into legal trouble, they are suddenly NOT a person, but a vague multi-layered blob, impossible to prosecute. This is exactly why corporations are legally people. We can prosecute the whole blob instead of trying to assign blame to individuals. To see how this works, take a look at People v Rochester Ry. Light co (NY 1909)[1]. A corporation killed someone through negligence, but nobody was ever punished because a corporation was not considered a legal person and it was impossible to reach into the vague blob and charge individuals. [1]https://cite.case.law/nys/114/755/ https://cite.case.law/nys/114/755/

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
papito 6y ago
I am confused? Effectively, the last criminal prosecution of a corporate entity where actual people went to jail was Robert Mueller's team vs Enron. After that, big money learned their lessons, plugged all the holes in their ships and now it's nearly impossible to do the same again.
- dahfizz 6y ago
  Yup, you're definitely confused. The people who went to jail as a result of the enron scandal (fastow) were charged as individuals. You can't charge a corporation and then have other people serve jail time on it's behalf. If jail time is the only thing that satiates you, then you need to clearly show that an individual broke the law. Failing that, we have the ability to charge the whole corporation to make sure that they are still held liable.
  - stingraycharles 6y ago
    I think it’s not productive calling each other confused, because I think what’s going on is that you’re both approaching this from a different perspective.
  - papito 6y ago
    In a working system, yes. In the America that we have today, I can crime all I want, behind a wall of indirection, lawyers, and preferential treatment of the Church of Business. It requires prosecutors with a special set of skills, perseverance, and resources, which we simply don't have. Mountains of corporate money is flowing into the government, thanks to stuff like Citizens United (a nuclear bomb under American politics), and absolutely out of control lobbying, creating a castrated government that simply cannot or wants to do anything.
rtlfe 6y ago
> I think you're a little confused... FWIW starting a conversation that way is going to put people in a defensive mindset and make them less likely to properly consider what you have to say.
- stingraycharles 6y ago
  Yep, it’s just noise in the discussion, and doesn’t add any value other than putting the other person on defense mode. Proper discussions are difficult though, but i learned that starting out with acknowledging positive things, and most certainly stick to facts, not attacking the people you’re talking with.
- kerng 6y ago
  That's why I like HN comment threads. So many good examples on how to make progress in discussions and conversations, and even analysis of why certain behavior is counter-productive
underwater 6y ago
If an individual kills someone they will be arrested and imprisoned. If a corporation kills someone they may be fined a token amount or have a pay restitution. Hardly equivalent.