5 ms·

Maybe the macro world doesn't have the butterfly effect either given enough time (millions of years?)

by JanSt 6y ago

esperent 6y ago
Given enough time (heat death of the universe) the macro word certainly doesn't have the butterfly effect. It's generally used in reference to shorter time scales.
- ralusek 6y ago
  Even at the heat death of the universe, butterfly effect would have resulted in different distributions of matter in their final resting states. I feel like your argument is akin to saying that it doesn't matter what an artist does on a canvas, because in the end, the painting is always abandoned by the artist. Yes, that's true, but the paintings are only indistinguishable insofar as your only criteria is that they are no longer being updated by the artist.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >butterfly effect would have resulted in different distributions of matter in their final resting states. Isn't there just one distribution of matter in the heat death? If the universe was in any kind of distribution with entropy to spare it wouldn't be the heat death...
    - irjustin 6y ago
      Not entirely. Technical heat-death means there's no extractable work available anywhere and everything is in its most stable state for all of time. If protons do not decay[0] (we're not sure), parent comment could be correct. That there is a distribution of protons (or something else) left which would be unique because of some 'butterfly effect'. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay
    - goldenkey 6y ago
      That is the idea behind Conformal Cyclic Cosmology, hypothesized by the titanic Roger Penrose. [1] However, he has considered a couple different possibilities: [Possibility 1] The last eon's heat death determines the big bang's character which in turn determines the distribution of matter-energy in the universe, ie. cosmic microwave background distribution [Possibility 2] There is no information able to pass from universe to universe, ie. the state of the big bang is essentially {}, a null state. Any asymmetry in the big bang is due to purely JIT QM. Nonetheless, the crux of the theory is that a heat death is the conformal equivalent of a big bang, since there are no particles with mass, thus no clocks/time. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_cyclic_cosmology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_cyclic_cosmology
  - aetherson 6y ago
    The butterfly effect refers to positive feedback loops, allowing a small stimulus to have an outsized macroscopic effect.
  - irjustin 6y ago
    > butterfly effect would have resulted in different distributions of matter in their final resting states. This isn't a verified yet. We aren't sure if fundamental particles hold up under heat-death[0] Not even sure if the quarks and gluons hold up either[1]. All this to say, the parent comment could be right? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay [1] https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/147893/what-are-quarks-made-of-and-will-they-ever-decay-to-this https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/147893/what-are-...

Maybe the macro world doesn't have the butterfly effect either given enough time (millions of years?)

by JanSt 6y ago

Maybe the macro world doesn't have the butterfly effect either given enough time (millions of years?)

Given enough time (heat death of the universe) the macro word certainly doesn't have the butterfly effect. It's generally used in reference to shorter time scales.

ralusek 6y ago
Even at the heat death of the universe, butterfly effect would have resulted in different distributions of matter in their final resting states. I feel like your argument is akin to saying that it doesn't matter what an artist does on a canvas, because in the end, the painting is always abandoned by the artist. Yes, that's true, but the paintings are only indistinguishable insofar as your only criteria is that they are no longer being updated by the artist.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >butterfly effect would have resulted in different distributions of matter in their final resting states. Isn't there just one distribution of matter in the heat death? If the universe was in any kind of distribution with entropy to spare it wouldn't be the heat death...
  - irjustin 6y ago
    Not entirely. Technical heat-death means there's no extractable work available anywhere and everything is in its most stable state for all of time. If protons do not decay[0] (we're not sure), parent comment could be correct. That there is a distribution of protons (or something else) left which would be unique because of some 'butterfly effect'. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay
  - goldenkey 6y ago
    That is the idea behind Conformal Cyclic Cosmology, hypothesized by the titanic Roger Penrose. [1] However, he has considered a couple different possibilities: [Possibility 1] The last eon's heat death determines the big bang's character which in turn determines the distribution of matter-energy in the universe, ie. cosmic microwave background distribution [Possibility 2] There is no information able to pass from universe to universe, ie. the state of the big bang is essentially {}, a null state. Any asymmetry in the big bang is due to purely JIT QM. Nonetheless, the crux of the theory is that a heat death is the conformal equivalent of a big bang, since there are no particles with mass, thus no clocks/time. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_cyclic_cosmology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_cyclic_cosmology
- aetherson 6y ago
  The butterfly effect refers to positive feedback loops, allowing a small stimulus to have an outsized macroscopic effect.
- irjustin 6y ago
  > butterfly effect would have resulted in different distributions of matter in their final resting states. This isn't a verified yet. We aren't sure if fundamental particles hold up under heat-death[0] Not even sure if the quarks and gluons hold up either[1]. All this to say, the parent comment could be right? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay [1] https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/147893/what-are-quarks-made-of-and-will-they-ever-decay-to-this https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/147893/what-are-...