7 ms·

This seems fairly unsurprising to me. Internet is a utility. Most people also don't have a choice in who they get electric, water, gas, etc. from. It's unfort

This seems fairly unsurprising to me. Internet is a utility. Most people also don't have a choice in who they get electric, water, gas, etc. from. It's unfortunate that internet service quality is so varied from location to location, but utilities tend to form natural monopolies.

avmich 6y ago
> It's unfortunate that internet service quality is so varied from location to location, but utilities tend to form natural monopolies. You're missing the crucial difference. Public utilities are supervised by the public.
- war1025 6y ago
  > Public utilities are supervised by the public I have municipal fiber, which is not common, so I guess that's a fair point.
shados 6y ago
they're generally a fair bit more regulated though (and ironically I actually have more options for electric than I do for internet).
throw0101a 6y ago
> […] but utilities tend to form natural monopolies. Then perhaps more local authorities should form Internet utilities: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_broadband https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_broadband It's a thing in many places: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Telecommunication_Open_Infrastructure_Agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Telecommunication_Open_In... * https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/06/what-if-switching-fiber-isps-was-as-easy-as-clicking-a-mouse/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/06/what-... Unless you are in one of the 22 US states that have restrictions on it: * https://broadbandnow.com/report/municipal-broadband-roadblocks/ https://broadbandnow.com/report/municipal-broadband-roadbloc... The public infrastructure provides ISO Layer 1/2 connectivity, and let the Free Market™ compete at Level 3.
- non-entity 6y ago
  The city i live in has been trying to organize municipal fiber internet but there's very hard pushback from both citizens and lobbying from spectrum. There was even an entire account on the cities subreddit named CitynameFiberBad lmao
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    > very hard pushback from both citizens What are the citizens' concern(s)? The Ars article is interesting: the place is in Ammon, Idaho, where they label themselves as right-leaning, small government. That would be the stereotypical place to not do such a project.
    - non-entity 6y ago
      Thats part of it, but from what I understand there was a similar project attempted years ago that failed from what they say.
- war1025 6y ago
  Both the town I grew up in and the town I currently live in have Municipal Broadband. So maybe I have a skewed view of the landscape.
Aaargh20318 6y ago
> Internet is a utility. Most people also don't have a choice in who they get electric, water, gas, etc. from. Wait, you don’t get to choose who your electricity and gas provider is either ? Here we get to choose from literally dozens of providers. Same goes for internet. I can choose from 13 different ISPs at my address on fiber alone. I thought the US believed in competition and free markets ?
- pwinnski 6y ago
  "Competition for thee, but not for me" is the order of the day. Outsiders and upstarts wants competition, and once they establish a majority market share, they spend and fight to ensure nobody else can do the same. Money controls everything.
- jldugger 6y ago
  Do you have 13 different gas pipelines leading to your home?
  - drdaeman 6y ago
    That's the difference why ISPs are not like gas, water or sewer. There are places where there are multiple fiber lines leading to one's home. I don't know about 13, but I've used to live in a place where there were 6 different providers, each with their fiber or copper (sharing the communal conduits, so it did not require constant digging to bury every single line). Solve the inability of new providers to get to the market, and incentivize settlements to provide conduits as an utility. If any regulations are needed - it's the regulations that nullify the exclusivity agreements. That is already proven to work in many countries that have started late (esp. post-Soviet countries) and haven't had those ancient monopolies dragging them down. What else is proven, is that no matter how hard one tries to regulate an utility, it would suck, because there's absolutely no incentive for them to improve (unless they're forced to). Competition naturally forces to stay put all the time (you screw up - your customers are gone), regulation does not - just keeping it conforming to the regulations - i.e. tolerable, just above the bottom line (customers won't go anywhere).
  - Aaargh20318 6y ago

avmich 6y ago

> It's unfortunate that internet service quality is so varied from location to location, but utilities tend to form natural monopolies. You're missing the crucial difference. Public utilities are supervised by the public.

war1025 6y ago
> Public utilities are supervised by the public I have municipal fiber, which is not common, so I guess that's a fair point.

shados 6y ago

they're generally a fair bit more regulated though (and ironically I actually have more options for electric than I do for internet).

throw0101a 6y ago

> […] but utilities tend to form natural monopolies. Then perhaps more local authorities should form Internet utilities: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_broadband https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_broadband It's a thing in many places: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Telecommunication_Open_Infrastructure_Agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Telecommunication_Open_In... * https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/06/what-if-switching-fiber-isps-was-as-easy-as-clicking-a-mouse/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/06/what-... Unless you are in one of the 22 US states that have restrictions on it: * https://broadbandnow.com/report/municipal-broadband-roadblocks/ https://broadbandnow.com/report/municipal-broadband-roadbloc... The public infrastructure provides ISO Layer 1/2 connectivity, and let the Free Market™ compete at Level 3.

non-entity 6y ago
The city i live in has been trying to organize municipal fiber internet but there's very hard pushback from both citizens and lobbying from spectrum. There was even an entire account on the cities subreddit named CitynameFiberBad lmao
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > very hard pushback from both citizens What are the citizens' concern(s)? The Ars article is interesting: the place is in Ammon, Idaho, where they label themselves as right-leaning, small government. That would be the stereotypical place to not do such a project.
  - non-entity 6y ago
    Thats part of it, but from what I understand there was a similar project attempted years ago that failed from what they say.
war1025 6y ago
Both the town I grew up in and the town I currently live in have Municipal Broadband. So maybe I have a skewed view of the landscape.

Aaargh20318 6y ago

> Internet is a utility. Most people also don't have a choice in who they get electric, water, gas, etc. from. Wait, you don’t get to choose who your electricity and gas provider is either ? Here we get to choose from literally dozens of providers. Same goes for internet. I can choose from 13 different ISPs at my address on fiber alone. I thought the US believed in competition and free markets ?

pwinnski 6y ago
"Competition for thee, but not for me" is the order of the day. Outsiders and upstarts wants competition, and once they establish a majority market share, they spend and fight to ensure nobody else can do the same. Money controls everything.
jldugger 6y ago
Do you have 13 different gas pipelines leading to your home?
- drdaeman 6y ago
  That's the difference why ISPs are not like gas, water or sewer. There are places where there are multiple fiber lines leading to one's home. I don't know about 13, but I've used to live in a place where there were 6 different providers, each with their fiber or copper (sharing the communal conduits, so it did not require constant digging to bury every single line). Solve the inability of new providers to get to the market, and incentivize settlements to provide conduits as an utility. If any regulations are needed - it's the regulations that nullify the exclusivity agreements. That is already proven to work in many countries that have started late (esp. post-Soviet countries) and haven't had those ancient monopolies dragging them down. What else is proven, is that no matter how hard one tries to regulate an utility, it would suck, because there's absolutely no incentive for them to improve (unless they're forced to). Competition naturally forces to stay put all the time (you screw up - your customers are gone), regulation does not - just keeping it conforming to the regulations - i.e. tolerable, just above the bottom line (customers won't go anywhere).
- Aaargh20318 6y ago