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It's degrading ("toxic") to tell a contributor they don't belong in kernel development with comments like the above and the follow-up: "...you really disqualif

It's degrading ("toxic") to tell a contributor they don't belong in kernel development with comments like the above and the follow-up: "...you really disqualify yourself from kernel work. Please really just go away and stop this crap."

pritambaral 6y ago
1. They're not a contributor. Not yet, anyway. 2. How degrading do you consider the submission? As can be seen from the patchset, there's no conceivable way it could be built into the kernel without having the kernel build depend on proprietary headers, effectively disqualifying it entirely. This all-important fact is revealed in the very last patch of a 21-patch patchset, wasting everyone's time, and a lot of it. It's either utter carelessness, stupidity, or outright malice to ask for something like this to be included into a loudly-and-clearly GPL-licensed kernel.
- q3k 6y ago
  > As can be seen from the patchset, there's no conceivable way it could be built into the kernel without having the kernel build depend on proprietary headers, effectively disqualifying it entirely. Then just disqualify it, cite the reasons for why, and move on. No need for attacks, no need to tell the other person to fuck off. There's enough badness in the patch that you don't need to resort to criticizing the submitter.
  - pritambaral 6y ago
    As I have said already, which you seem to be ignoring: "This all-important fact is revealed in the very last patch of a 21-patch patchset, wasting everyone's time, and a lot of it. It's either utter carelessness, stupidity, or outright malice to ask for something like this to be included into a loudly-and-clearly GPL-licensed kernel. ---- In the end, all I have to say to you is: If I walk up to you in the street and slap you in the face, unprovoked, surely the noble thing for you to do is to politely tell me off; but I will not hold it against you if you were to lose your cool and retaliate.
    - q3k 6y ago
      Neither carelessness, stupidity, or malice (over a patch!) warrants personal attacks. I wouldn't ever compare these to being slapped in the face, unprovoked, on the street. A code maintainer's job is to curate, coordinate, help, and sometimes (in this case, notably) also gatekeep. If you can't stand the occasional terrible code and have to resort to personal attacks in order to vent off, or to feel better (or because you feel personally insulted) - then that seems to me that you're bad at your job. If we're going with parallels - seeing this sort of behavior and excuses reminds me of people excusing police abuse. If you can't be cool and deescalate the occasional problem - maybe this job's not for you.
      - pritambaral 6y ago
        > Neither carelessness, stupidity, or malice (over a patch!) warrants personal attacks. 1. We both know it wasn't just "a patch". Downplaying what happened doesn't serve the discussion. 2. I do not see "If you only even considered this is something reasonable to do you should not be anywhere near Linux kernel development. Just go away!" as a personal attack, but as an attack against _the behaviour_ that _deliberately_ wastes a lot of one's time. Note the _"if you ... considered this ..."_. ---- > I wouldn't ever compare these to being slapped in the face, unprovoked, on the street. This is not the comparison I made. I compared the reactions of the offended and your comments on said reactions. Let me try again, in clear terms: I find it understandable when someone doesn't react calmly and politely to having a lot of their time _deliberately_ wasted and their principles attacked. > ... the occasional terrible code ... See, again, I think you're severely downplaying what happened. The LKML regularly sees "the occasional terrible code". This is not one of them. Not even close. > ... this sort of behavior and excuses reminds me of people excusing police abuse. That is a ridiculous comparison to make. The LKML does not exist to "protect and serve" the public, is not funded by the public, or even remotely responsible for law & order & safety & peace of the public. It is a private group of like-minded people that happen to be open to public participation. If you go and take a dump on their lawn, don't be surprised at some harsh words thrown back at you. And definitely don't compare a handful of harsh words that are easily brushed aside for gruesome physical brutality and blatant wilful murder. > ... the occasional problem ... Again, you are severely downplaying what happened. What was posted is not an example of "the occasional problem" — there's plenty of those in the lists. What was returned wasn't nearly as toxic.
- solidasparagus 6y ago
  It's ridiculous that the Linux community thinks it's normal to insult people and tell them to go away and never come back because they are "careless" or "stupid". Reject it (and maybe educate if you're feeling generous) but there's no reason to be a dick.

pritambaral 6y ago

1. They're not a contributor. Not yet, anyway. 2. How degrading do you consider the submission? As can be seen from the patchset, there's no conceivable way it could be built into the kernel without having the kernel build depend on proprietary headers, effectively disqualifying it entirely. This all-important fact is revealed in the very last patch of a 21-patch patchset, wasting everyone's time, and a lot of it. It's either utter carelessness, stupidity, or outright malice to ask for something like this to be included into a loudly-and-clearly GPL-licensed kernel.

q3k 6y ago
> As can be seen from the patchset, there's no conceivable way it could be built into the kernel without having the kernel build depend on proprietary headers, effectively disqualifying it entirely. Then just disqualify it, cite the reasons for why, and move on. No need for attacks, no need to tell the other person to fuck off. There's enough badness in the patch that you don't need to resort to criticizing the submitter.
- pritambaral 6y ago
  As I have said already, which you seem to be ignoring: "This all-important fact is revealed in the very last patch of a 21-patch patchset, wasting everyone's time, and a lot of it. It's either utter carelessness, stupidity, or outright malice to ask for something like this to be included into a loudly-and-clearly GPL-licensed kernel. ---- In the end, all I have to say to you is: If I walk up to you in the street and slap you in the face, unprovoked, surely the noble thing for you to do is to politely tell me off; but I will not hold it against you if you were to lose your cool and retaliate.
  - q3k 6y ago
    Neither carelessness, stupidity, or malice (over a patch!) warrants personal attacks. I wouldn't ever compare these to being slapped in the face, unprovoked, on the street. A code maintainer's job is to curate, coordinate, help, and sometimes (in this case, notably) also gatekeep. If you can't stand the occasional terrible code and have to resort to personal attacks in order to vent off, or to feel better (or because you feel personally insulted) - then that seems to me that you're bad at your job. If we're going with parallels - seeing this sort of behavior and excuses reminds me of people excusing police abuse. If you can't be cool and deescalate the occasional problem - maybe this job's not for you.
    - pritambaral 6y ago
      > Neither carelessness, stupidity, or malice (over a patch!) warrants personal attacks. 1. We both know it wasn't just "a patch". Downplaying what happened doesn't serve the discussion. 2. I do not see "If you only even considered this is something reasonable to do you should not be anywhere near Linux kernel development. Just go away!" as a personal attack, but as an attack against _the behaviour_ that _deliberately_ wastes a lot of one's time. Note the _"if you ... considered this ..."_. ---- > I wouldn't ever compare these to being slapped in the face, unprovoked, on the street. This is not the comparison I made. I compared the reactions of the offended and your comments on said reactions. Let me try again, in clear terms: I find it understandable when someone doesn't react calmly and politely to having a lot of their time _deliberately_ wasted and their principles attacked. > ... the occasional terrible code ... See, again, I think you're severely downplaying what happened. The LKML regularly sees "the occasional terrible code". This is not one of them. Not even close. > ... this sort of behavior and excuses reminds me of people excusing police abuse. That is a ridiculous comparison to make. The LKML does not exist to "protect and serve" the public, is not funded by the public, or even remotely responsible for law & order & safety & peace of the public. It is a private group of like-minded people that happen to be open to public participation. If you go and take a dump on their lawn, don't be surprised at some harsh words thrown back at you. And definitely don't compare a handful of harsh words that are easily brushed aside for gruesome physical brutality and blatant wilful murder. > ... the occasional problem ... Again, you are severely downplaying what happened. What was posted is not an example of "the occasional problem" — there's plenty of those in the lists. What was returned wasn't nearly as toxic.
solidasparagus 6y ago
It's ridiculous that the Linux community thinks it's normal to insult people and tell them to go away and never come back because they are "careless" or "stupid". Reject it (and maybe educate if you're feeling generous) but there's no reason to be a dick.