5 ms·

Firstly, they have done absolutely zero of the work needed to make the platform into the giant international success that it is. Epic is the reason that iOS is

Firstly, they have done absolutely zero of the work needed to make the platform into the giant international success that it is. Epic is the reason that iOS is a gaming megahouse today. Infinity Blade, i.e., the game that Apple itself used to demonstrate the iPhone's gaming abilities, was created using Unreal Engine. Epic provided a substantial amount of assistance to the developer to get the game made. But clearly there is no moral case to be made for the claim that Epic has better business practices than Apple or they they are some kind of victim here. Apple has done none of the work of creating the billions of $$$ in valuable apps. Why do they get to claim 30% of that? There's a term for that: rent-seeking. (Also, greed, if you want the moral term.)

Emanation 6y ago
You can use the same moralitic argument for people who develop apps that go on the Apple store.
pjmlp 6y ago
Without Apple there wouldn't be iOS devices for Epic to sell their games on, that is what Apple has done.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  Without Apple there would be Windows Phone, Blackberry, and Android devices for Epic to sell games on.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    With the same percentages that Epic isn't willing to pay for, actually on Blackberry it was even higher than 30% back in the old days. Epic has been kicked out of Android as well, and as this Ars Technica article shows, they are more than happy to pay XBox tax.
    - saghm 6y ago
      > Epic has been kicked out of Android as well Is that really accurate? Android supports sideloading, which I think is how they first brought Fortnite to Android. They might have been kicked out of the Google Play store, but that's not the same thing.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        AOSP supports sideloading, if a given device supports it depends pretty much on the OEM, besides that is a feature that requires technical expertise and ignoring a couple of warnings about possible malware.
        saghm 6y ago
        I've seen devices with with locked bootloaders, but I've honestly never seen an Android device without the ability to sideload (even if it's disabled by default). That's not to say I don't believe you that some OEMs disable it; I don't think it's particularly common though.
zepto 6y ago
It’s obviously not rent seeking by anyone’s definition. This is really one of the most absurd claims that gets made about this situation. Apple is today putting more effort into developing their software platform than anyone in history. If they stopped doing that - how long do you think it would take for Google, or frankly any number of other players, to eat their lunch? They continue to be in the leadership position because they are continuing to innovate as fast as they can. Not because they somehow ‘own’ the position. And frankly the amount of effort that is going into developing the platform is immense. Every part of the platform contributes to its success. Fitness tracking, the watch, the massive investment in APIs, Accessivility, dealing with supply chains, governments geopolitical risks, etc. etc. All of these things are why the platform has the reach it has today. Each one contributes to more people choosing the device and a larger addressable market for developers. I’m delighted to let them take 30% for all this, because I didn’t have to do any of it. Neither did Epic.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  It’s obviously not rent seeking by anyone’s definition. This is really one of the most absurd claims that gets made about this situation. It is literally the definition of rent-seeking: "when an entity seeks to gain added wealth without any reciprocal contribution of productivity." Apple isn't making the games, or even the engine. It's just extracting money from the developers that are making the games. Apple is today putting more effort into developing their software platform than anyone in history. True, because Apple won't let anyone else develop their software platform. By that token, Google is putting more effort into developing their software platform than anyone in history, and so is Microsoft, and so is Epic. For comparison: Apple also puts a lot of effort into MacOS, and MS into Windows, but developers can sell games there without Apple taking 30% off the top. If they stopped doing that - how long do you think it would take for Google, or frankly any number of other players, to eat their lunch? This is irrelevant to the question of rent-seeking behavior. They continue to be in the leadership position because they are continuing to innovate as fast as they can. Apple is not the most common smartphone in the world, or even the Western world. It is simply the most profitable...because of the aforementioned rent-seeking. Every part of the platform contributes to its success. Fitness tracking, the watch, the massive investment in APIs, Accessivility, dealing with supply chains, governments geopolitical risks, etc. etc. All of which were first developed by third parties...Apple only began working on those products after third parties proved the market demand existed. I’m delighted to let them take 30% for all this, because I didn’t have to do any of it. Wow. Just wow. Neither did Epic. Epic is the reason people even think of iPhone as a gaming platform today. Not Apple. Epic.
zepto 6y ago
The work done on infinity blade is practically zero by comparison to the work done on the platform, and it’s ridiculous to suggest that without infinity blade there wouldn’t have been games on the iPhone. Not only that by Apple marketed the hell out of Infinity blade, and provided development assistance of their own, and Epic received the benefits. Furthermore, as you point out, Epic wasn’t actually the developer of Infinity Blade. Why should they get to ‘rent seek’ on the work of other developers?

Emanation 6y ago

You can use the same moralitic argument for people who develop apps that go on the Apple store.

pjmlp 6y ago

Without Apple there wouldn't be iOS devices for Epic to sell their games on, that is what Apple has done.

gamblor956 6y ago
Without Apple there would be Windows Phone, Blackberry, and Android devices for Epic to sell games on.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  With the same percentages that Epic isn't willing to pay for, actually on Blackberry it was even higher than 30% back in the old days. Epic has been kicked out of Android as well, and as this Ars Technica article shows, they are more than happy to pay XBox tax.
  - saghm 6y ago
    > Epic has been kicked out of Android as well Is that really accurate? Android supports sideloading, which I think is how they first brought Fortnite to Android. They might have been kicked out of the Google Play store, but that's not the same thing.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      AOSP supports sideloading, if a given device supports it depends pretty much on the OEM, besides that is a feature that requires technical expertise and ignoring a couple of warnings about possible malware.
      - saghm 6y ago
        I've seen devices with with locked bootloaders, but I've honestly never seen an Android device without the ability to sideload (even if it's disabled by default). That's not to say I don't believe you that some OEMs disable it; I don't think it's particularly common though.

zepto 6y ago

It’s obviously not rent seeking by anyone’s definition. This is really one of the most absurd claims that gets made about this situation. Apple is today putting more effort into developing their software platform than anyone in history. If they stopped doing that - how long do you think it would take for Google, or frankly any number of other players, to eat their lunch? They continue to be in the leadership position because they are continuing to innovate as fast as they can. Not because they somehow ‘own’ the position. And frankly the amount of effort that is going into developing the platform is immense. Every part of the platform contributes to its success. Fitness tracking, the watch, the massive investment in APIs, Accessivility, dealing with supply chains, governments geopolitical risks, etc. etc. All of these things are why the platform has the reach it has today. Each one contributes to more people choosing the device and a larger addressable market for developers. I’m delighted to let them take 30% for all this, because I didn’t have to do any of it. Neither did Epic.

gamblor956 6y ago
It’s obviously not rent seeking by anyone’s definition. This is really one of the most absurd claims that gets made about this situation. It is literally the definition of rent-seeking: "when an entity seeks to gain added wealth without any reciprocal contribution of productivity." Apple isn't making the games, or even the engine. It's just extracting money from the developers that are making the games. Apple is today putting more effort into developing their software platform than anyone in history. True, because Apple won't let anyone else develop their software platform. By that token, Google is putting more effort into developing their software platform than anyone in history, and so is Microsoft, and so is Epic. For comparison: Apple also puts a lot of effort into MacOS, and MS into Windows, but developers can sell games there without Apple taking 30% off the top. If they stopped doing that - how long do you think it would take for Google, or frankly any number of other players, to eat their lunch? This is irrelevant to the question of rent-seeking behavior. They continue to be in the leadership position because they are continuing to innovate as fast as they can. Apple is not the most common smartphone in the world, or even the Western world. It is simply the most profitable...because of the aforementioned rent-seeking. Every part of the platform contributes to its success. Fitness tracking, the watch, the massive investment in APIs, Accessivility, dealing with supply chains, governments geopolitical risks, etc. etc. All of which were first developed by third parties...Apple only began working on those products after third parties proved the market demand existed. I’m delighted to let them take 30% for all this, because I didn’t have to do any of it. Wow. Just wow. Neither did Epic. Epic is the reason people even think of iPhone as a gaming platform today. Not Apple. Epic.

zepto 6y ago

The work done on infinity blade is practically zero by comparison to the work done on the platform, and it’s ridiculous to suggest that without infinity blade there wouldn’t have been games on the iPhone. Not only that by Apple marketed the hell out of Infinity blade, and provided development assistance of their own, and Epic received the benefits. Furthermore, as you point out, Epic wasn’t actually the developer of Infinity Blade. Why should they get to ‘rent seek’ on the work of other developers?