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No it really wasn't. Nobody except tech geeks care about Servo. What Mozilla needs to do is to provide a privacy aware browser that doesn't inform Google (and e

No it really wasn't. Nobody except tech geeks care about Servo. What Mozilla needs to do is to provide a privacy aware browser that doesn't inform Google (and everyone else) about everything we do online. They can easily go the path Microsoft took and use Chromium as engine. Had they focused on that, I think they would be in a much better position than they are now (wasting millions on projects like Servo and Rust). Don't get me wrong... I love Servo and Rust, but from a business perspective it's suicide.

jchw 6y ago
This is short sighted. Browsers live and die on their performance benchmarks and security track records. Like it or don’t, “nobody but tech geeks” actually care about privacy.
- kelnos 6y ago
  The problem is that of understanding, and of finding cause and effect. I know a few people who have been victims of identity theft. After hearing their stories, it was clear to me that it would not have happened if companies weren't tracking them and selling their personal data left and right. But it's hard to make that connection. People seem to accept identity theft as "something that just happens sometimes", even though it makes them very angry, frustrated, anxious, and eats up a lot of time and sometimes money. I think they do this because it's hard to point to one culprit as the cause, and so it feels like an intractable problem. If people could actually understand that their lack of privacy protections on the internet (and elsewhere) is one of the main factors in enabling things like identity theft, there would be more people who would affirmatively care about privacy. I'm not sure how to get people to make that intuitive leap on a large enough scale for it to matter, though. You're very right that people mainly care about browser performance (I'd even argue they don't care about security that much, though certainly more than they care about privacy); I know several people who definitely know better and understand privacy issues on the internet, but still use Chrome because "Firefox is slow on macOS" or something.
  - abraae 6y ago
    > But it's hard to make that connection. People seem to accept identity theft as "something that just happens sometimes" A little like the way people talk about "cyber warfare". In real warfare, the enemy can attack your forces no matter what you do. In cyber warfare, you can build impenetrable defences. The only way the enemy can attack you successfully is if you make a mistake. This kind of thinking IMO is perpetuated by absurd tv shows where e.g McGee can hack into any computer system by tapping on his keyboard for a few seconds. It's harmless on TV, but in the real world it leads to complacency about security. People saying"poor Equifax, they were attacked" instead of "Equifax's security was a joke, and they left their system wide open for anyone to plunder".
    - ptx 6y ago
      > The only way the enemy can attack you successfully is if you make a mistake. Now we just need to find a piece of software that doesn't have any mistakes in it.
- zelly 6y ago
  Plus privacy is a switch. It can be turned on or off. s/google.com/127.0.0.1 and so on. Making a fast browser takes many developer-decades.
kgraves 6y ago
I get the business perspective and there really is no disputing this. > Nobody except tech geeks care about Servo. This is a good point unless there actually non tech people that care about Servo.
- ummonk 6y ago
  Every user cares about performance / responsiveness feel.
  - kgraves 6y ago
    Sure, they use Chrome or Chromium based browsers instead, the dominant browser/browser engine unfortunately.
exlurker 6y ago
A good starting point: https://github.com/Eloston/ungoogled-chromium https://github.com/Eloston/ungoogled-chromium
- zelly 6y ago
  It's quite usable as-is. Not sure why it hasn't gotten much attention. It's more privacy oriented than Firefox and is faster than Firefox. I have been using it on desktop Linux for years. I tried Brave and Firefox, but they both have bloat and phone home to someone by default, unlike UG. For all the time it takes to argue back and forth about which browser should take over next, you could have installed UG and moved on with life.
  - encom 6y ago
    It's Google code, so it cannot be trusted and should be assumed to be malicious. Calling it more privacy focused than Firefox is just absurd.
    - zelly 6y ago
      Firefox has a lot of telemetry built into the default install. It has Pocket, everything you type into the search bar gets sent to Google by default, phones home to Mozilla by default, I could go on. Ungoogled Chromium doesn't do any of that. Firefox is also less secure than Chromium. If an actual malicious attacker can access my browser, that's a million times worse than any kind of concern about Google bulk collecting my data as far as I'm concerned. https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/firefox-chromium.html https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/firefox-chromium.ht...
ocdtrekkie 6y ago
This is terrible advice. It would mean that Google, by controlling Chromium, has complete and unchallenged ownership of the Web. You are suggesting one of Google's last remaining competitors in the space just fold and go home. At that point, we might as well literally just unplug everything and call the Internet experiment over. Do. Not. Use. Chromium.
- stingraycharles 6y ago
  Well there’s still Safari, but I agree, it’s looking terrible for the open internet right now.
  - moogly 6y ago
    Safari is macOS/iOS only.
    - se32point1 6y ago
      WebKit, the enginge for Safari, is not. Epiphany uses the same engine and is available for Linux. I'm sure there's a Windows WebKit browser as well.
      - marmaduke 6y ago
        Qt has a WebKit thingy so you can build a WebKit browser across platforms even in Python: https://pywebview.flowrl.com/ https://pywebview.flowrl.com/
        CameronNemo 6y ago
        They are pushing the Blink engine now instead, though...
      - filleduchaos 6y ago
        Funnily enough, the PlayStation line uses WebKit as the engine for its web browser
pcwalton 6y ago
Given a choice between Chrome and Chrome, people will pick Chrome every time.
coldtea 6y ago
>No it really wasn't. Nobody except tech geeks care about Servo. What Mozilla needs to do is to provide a privacy aware browser that doesn't inform Google Nobody except geeks and politically minded people care about privacy that much (if they didn't they'd already use Firefox with DDG, or Brave or at least Safari). People do care for faster, more conventient browser -- that's why we switched from Netscape to IE (when Mozilla bloated and a for a little while IE6 was faster/better), then to Firefox, and then to Chrome.
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  Lots of people care about privacy if the intrusions are bad enough to notice. People really don’t like it if they search for and buy a bicycle and keep getting ads for bicycles for weeks.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >Lots of people care about privacy if the intrusions are bad enough to notice. Well, lots but still insignifcant to make a browser market share raise. Which is not "lots" in the sense that matters. Most People value speed, convenience, features, and security over privacy. >People really don’t like it if they search for and buy a bicycle and keep getting ads for bicycles for weeks. Most (as in over 80% of the people) don't even use an ad blocker and could not care less. Even if they are annoyed but keeping getting those ads, they don't care enough to do anything about it, much less switch broswers.
krick 6y ago
At first I, like everyone else, downvoted this comment, because "how dare you insult my Servo!", but then immediately took my vote back and then finally was forced to upvote that, because actually I agree. In fact, it's all somehow paradoxically backwards: I liked (I guess I can safely use the past tense now) Mozilla (the company) because of Servo, and Quantum, and Rust, and amazing technical people who made it all happen, not some PR-bullshitters and lawyer-CEO. But I use Firefox (the product), simply because it's only feasible non-Google alternative out there I know, not because it's cooler or even better from the technical perspective. I don't give a fuck what engine they use, Blink and V8 are as fast as it gets. In fact, there was a time before Quantum when Firefox was actually slower than Chromium (and I'm not even sure it's different now, I just don't use it), and I used Firefox anyway. Worse than that, the only place where I actually care about engine performance is mobile, and Chrome just destroys Firefox there. And even then, I opt to use Firefox half of the time (i.e. when I don't need to google smth quickly in the middle of the conversation while moving in the crowd). I guess it's hard to imagine how somebody could use Firefox because of engine at all. It's definitely not the main selling point, by a long shot. Edit, to summarize: it's not that performance doesn't matter, it's just that currently it's hard enough to compete with Blink & V8. And, of course, Blink becomes better precisely because there is a competition they have to fight. (It will probably become worse when Gecko/Servo/Firefox dies.) But to be that competition without having shitload of money Google has is not fun right now. It's hardly a fight you can win. Easier just to ride on Google's back and to use Blink yourself.

jchw 6y ago

This is short sighted. Browsers live and die on their performance benchmarks and security track records. Like it or don’t, “nobody but tech geeks” actually care about privacy.

kelnos 6y ago
The problem is that of understanding, and of finding cause and effect. I know a few people who have been victims of identity theft. After hearing their stories, it was clear to me that it would not have happened if companies weren't tracking them and selling their personal data left and right. But it's hard to make that connection. People seem to accept identity theft as "something that just happens sometimes", even though it makes them very angry, frustrated, anxious, and eats up a lot of time and sometimes money. I think they do this because it's hard to point to one culprit as the cause, and so it feels like an intractable problem. If people could actually understand that their lack of privacy protections on the internet (and elsewhere) is one of the main factors in enabling things like identity theft, there would be more people who would affirmatively care about privacy. I'm not sure how to get people to make that intuitive leap on a large enough scale for it to matter, though. You're very right that people mainly care about browser performance (I'd even argue they don't care about security that much, though certainly more than they care about privacy); I know several people who definitely know better and understand privacy issues on the internet, but still use Chrome because "Firefox is slow on macOS" or something.
- abraae 6y ago
  > But it's hard to make that connection. People seem to accept identity theft as "something that just happens sometimes" A little like the way people talk about "cyber warfare". In real warfare, the enemy can attack your forces no matter what you do. In cyber warfare, you can build impenetrable defences. The only way the enemy can attack you successfully is if you make a mistake. This kind of thinking IMO is perpetuated by absurd tv shows where e.g McGee can hack into any computer system by tapping on his keyboard for a few seconds. It's harmless on TV, but in the real world it leads to complacency about security. People saying"poor Equifax, they were attacked" instead of "Equifax's security was a joke, and they left their system wide open for anyone to plunder".
  - ptx 6y ago
    > The only way the enemy can attack you successfully is if you make a mistake. Now we just need to find a piece of software that doesn't have any mistakes in it.
zelly 6y ago
Plus privacy is a switch. It can be turned on or off. s/google.com/127.0.0.1 and so on. Making a fast browser takes many developer-decades.

kgraves 6y ago

I get the business perspective and there really is no disputing this. > Nobody except tech geeks care about Servo. This is a good point unless there actually non tech people that care about Servo.

ummonk 6y ago
Every user cares about performance / responsiveness feel.
- kgraves 6y ago
  Sure, they use Chrome or Chromium based browsers instead, the dominant browser/browser engine unfortunately.

exlurker 6y ago

A good starting point: https://github.com/Eloston/ungoogled-chromium https://github.com/Eloston/ungoogled-chromium

zelly 6y ago
It's quite usable as-is. Not sure why it hasn't gotten much attention. It's more privacy oriented than Firefox and is faster than Firefox. I have been using it on desktop Linux for years. I tried Brave and Firefox, but they both have bloat and phone home to someone by default, unlike UG. For all the time it takes to argue back and forth about which browser should take over next, you could have installed UG and moved on with life.
- encom 6y ago
  It's Google code, so it cannot be trusted and should be assumed to be malicious. Calling it more privacy focused than Firefox is just absurd.
  - zelly 6y ago
    Firefox has a lot of telemetry built into the default install. It has Pocket, everything you type into the search bar gets sent to Google by default, phones home to Mozilla by default, I could go on. Ungoogled Chromium doesn't do any of that. Firefox is also less secure than Chromium. If an actual malicious attacker can access my browser, that's a million times worse than any kind of concern about Google bulk collecting my data as far as I'm concerned. https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/firefox-chromium.html https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/firefox-chromium.ht...

ocdtrekkie 6y ago

This is terrible advice. It would mean that Google, by controlling Chromium, has complete and unchallenged ownership of the Web. You are suggesting one of Google's last remaining competitors in the space just fold and go home. At that point, we might as well literally just unplug everything and call the Internet experiment over. Do. Not. Use. Chromium.

stingraycharles 6y ago
Well there’s still Safari, but I agree, it’s looking terrible for the open internet right now.
- moogly 6y ago
  Safari is macOS/iOS only.
  - se32point1 6y ago
    WebKit, the enginge for Safari, is not. Epiphany uses the same engine and is available for Linux. I'm sure there's a Windows WebKit browser as well.
    - marmaduke 6y ago
      Qt has a WebKit thingy so you can build a WebKit browser across platforms even in Python: https://pywebview.flowrl.com/ https://pywebview.flowrl.com/
      - CameronNemo 6y ago
        They are pushing the Blink engine now instead, though...
    - filleduchaos 6y ago
      Funnily enough, the PlayStation line uses WebKit as the engine for its web browser

pcwalton 6y ago

Given a choice between Chrome and Chrome, people will pick Chrome every time.

coldtea 6y ago

>No it really wasn't. Nobody except tech geeks care about Servo. What Mozilla needs to do is to provide a privacy aware browser that doesn't inform Google Nobody except geeks and politically minded people care about privacy that much (if they didn't they'd already use Firefox with DDG, or Brave or at least Safari). People do care for faster, more conventient browser -- that's why we switched from Netscape to IE (when Mozilla bloated and a for a little while IE6 was faster/better), then to Firefox, and then to Chrome.

tinus_hn 6y ago
Lots of people care about privacy if the intrusions are bad enough to notice. People really don’t like it if they search for and buy a bicycle and keep getting ads for bicycles for weeks.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >Lots of people care about privacy if the intrusions are bad enough to notice. Well, lots but still insignifcant to make a browser market share raise. Which is not "lots" in the sense that matters. Most People value speed, convenience, features, and security over privacy. >People really don’t like it if they search for and buy a bicycle and keep getting ads for bicycles for weeks. Most (as in over 80% of the people) don't even use an ad blocker and could not care less. Even if they are annoyed but keeping getting those ads, they don't care enough to do anything about it, much less switch broswers.

krick 6y ago

At first I, like everyone else, downvoted this comment, because "how dare you insult my Servo!", but then immediately took my vote back and then finally was forced to upvote that, because actually I agree. In fact, it's all somehow paradoxically backwards: I liked (I guess I can safely use the past tense now) Mozilla (the company) because of Servo, and Quantum, and Rust, and amazing technical people who made it all happen, not some PR-bullshitters and lawyer-CEO. But I use Firefox (the product), simply because it's only feasible non-Google alternative out there I know, not because it's cooler or even better from the technical perspective. I don't give a fuck what engine they use, Blink and V8 are as fast as it gets. In fact, there was a time before Quantum when Firefox was actually slower than Chromium (and I'm not even sure it's different now, I just don't use it), and I used Firefox anyway. Worse than that, the only place where I actually care about engine performance is mobile, and Chrome just destroys Firefox there. And even then, I opt to use Firefox half of the time (i.e. when I don't need to google smth quickly in the middle of the conversation while moving in the crowd). I guess it's hard to imagine how somebody could use Firefox because of engine at all. It's definitely not the main selling point, by a long shot. Edit, to summarize: it's not that performance doesn't matter, it's just that currently it's hard enough to compete with Blink & V8. And, of course, Blink becomes better precisely because there is a competition they have to fight. (It will probably become worse when Gecko/Servo/Firefox dies.) But to be that competition without having shitload of money Google has is not fun right now. It's hardly a fight you can win. Easier just to ride on Google's back and to use Blink yourself.