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This is a very good question. Yes, time reversal would also reverse the process of our perception and memory, so we would experience time "moving forward" even

This is a very good question. Yes, time reversal would also reverse the process of our perception and memory, so we would experience time "moving forward" even if time were "moving" backward. We would experience entropy increasing even if entropy were "decreasing with time". (And it's perfectly valid to call the past "+t" and the future "-t"; the laws of physics don't care; if you do that, you'll see that entropy decreases as "t" increases, but despite changing definitions you'll still only have memories of a universe with lower entropy than the present). This is one reason why it might be more correct to say that time doesn't move at all. We just perceive a direction of time wherever the universe has an entropy gradient along "the time axis".

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
Entropy decreasing is not equivalent to time reversal. [Edit: to expand a bit: time reversal requires that some previous macrostate is achieved again. Entropy decreasing merely requires that the system enters any macrostate represented by less microstates than the current one. Put in more simple terms, the ice cube could reform but in a different shape. Entropy would have decreased, but it would not "look like" time reversal - it would just look like something very strange had happened. ]
- jbay808 6y ago
  This is true! I oversimplified a bit, because it's much easier to concretely discuss that scenario and its consequences, and it's more important from a philosophical perspective. Just like it's much easier to catch ice cubes forming on film by rewinding a tape than to run the camera waiting for spontaneous entropy decrease. Nonetheless, if the entropy of the whole universe were to consistently decrease for a sufficient time, even along a different route than time reversal, you should gradually start to notice that it's easier to form predictions or "memories" of the future than to remember the past, due to Landauer's principle. Before long, you should go back to considering the future to be the state of higher entropy.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    I think you're priviledging microstates. There are plenty of entropy decreases that are possible without the ice cube reforming. They're (extremely) unlikely of course, but somewhat less unlikely than the new, singular microstate you're asserting is somehow "less of a coincidence". It's vastly more likely (for example) that 1% of the particle velocities reverse than all of them doing so, and that could (depending ...) still lead to a decrease in the entropy of the system (but not a reformed ice cube). I don't see how a long term entropy decrease that does not follow the time reversal route could be easier to form predictions in. There are many possible higher entropy states for the water than the water sitting in the glass, and if the universe enjoyed random entropy decreases, I see no reason why it would tend to pick certain macrostates over others.
    - jbay808 6y ago
      Ah, I think we're just miscommunicating. I'm not saying that local time-reversal is more likely to happen than other kinds of entropy decrease; I'm not saying that a system is more likely to retrace its past than to enter a different state of low-entropy. Spontaneous local entropy decreases happen all the time, of course (but are overpowered by entropy increases), and the majority of those won't be exact reversals. And I'm not saying that locking yourself in a refrigerator will allow you to predict the future! I'm mainly picking on time reversal because it's easier to concretely communicate and reason about as an example of how a system behaves under entropy decrease, and is philosophically important because depending on one's definition of the sign of 't', you could actually view our universe as undergoing entropy decrease right now. But redefining the arrow of time won't let you form memories of the future -- you'll have memories of the lower entropy universe, regardless of which way you call "the future". The deeper point is, that's not a coincidence and doesn't depend on entropy decreases specifically being tied to time reversal. If we lived in a universe where the second law were somehow different and entropy "statistically always" decreased with time the way it "statistically always" increases now, then... well, it's hard to reason about such a universe because either it has very different laws than our own, or it's just our own universe with exactly that arbitrary t <--> -t transformation. But in most logically-consistent interpretations of that scenario, that universe's version of Landauer's principle would also flip the arrow of time perceived by its local inhabitants, and they'd end up with only memories of their "future". If I'm not quite making my point clear, try asking yourself why, if the laws of the universe are time reversible, why can't you remember the future the way you can remember the past? This gets into the mechanics of how memory works (as a general concept, not human memory specifically; it's easier to think about computer memory). (Edit): Why isn't this a trivial point? Well, if you imagine a universe composed of a chain of of "linked states" that goes from (low entropy) - (high entropy) - (low entropy), you'd find that any inhabitants of that universe would perceive a universe with directional time that progresses in the entropy gradient, even though that universe has no consistent directional time.

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago

Entropy decreasing is not equivalent to time reversal. [Edit: to expand a bit: time reversal requires that some previous macrostate is achieved again. Entropy decreasing merely requires that the system enters any macrostate represented by less microstates than the current one. Put in more simple terms, the ice cube could reform but in a different shape. Entropy would have decreased, but it would not "look like" time reversal - it would just look like something very strange had happened. ]

jbay808 6y ago
This is true! I oversimplified a bit, because it's much easier to concretely discuss that scenario and its consequences, and it's more important from a philosophical perspective. Just like it's much easier to catch ice cubes forming on film by rewinding a tape than to run the camera waiting for spontaneous entropy decrease. Nonetheless, if the entropy of the whole universe were to consistently decrease for a sufficient time, even along a different route than time reversal, you should gradually start to notice that it's easier to form predictions or "memories" of the future than to remember the past, due to Landauer's principle. Before long, you should go back to considering the future to be the state of higher entropy.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  I think you're priviledging microstates. There are plenty of entropy decreases that are possible without the ice cube reforming. They're (extremely) unlikely of course, but somewhat less unlikely than the new, singular microstate you're asserting is somehow "less of a coincidence". It's vastly more likely (for example) that 1% of the particle velocities reverse than all of them doing so, and that could (depending ...) still lead to a decrease in the entropy of the system (but not a reformed ice cube). I don't see how a long term entropy decrease that does not follow the time reversal route could be easier to form predictions in. There are many possible higher entropy states for the water than the water sitting in the glass, and if the universe enjoyed random entropy decreases, I see no reason why it would tend to pick certain macrostates over others.
  - jbay808 6y ago
    Ah, I think we're just miscommunicating. I'm not saying that local time-reversal is more likely to happen than other kinds of entropy decrease; I'm not saying that a system is more likely to retrace its past than to enter a different state of low-entropy. Spontaneous local entropy decreases happen all the time, of course (but are overpowered by entropy increases), and the majority of those won't be exact reversals. And I'm not saying that locking yourself in a refrigerator will allow you to predict the future! I'm mainly picking on time reversal because it's easier to concretely communicate and reason about as an example of how a system behaves under entropy decrease, and is philosophically important because depending on one's definition of the sign of 't', you could actually view our universe as undergoing entropy decrease right now. But redefining the arrow of time won't let you form memories of the future -- you'll have memories of the lower entropy universe, regardless of which way you call "the future". The deeper point is, that's not a coincidence and doesn't depend on entropy decreases specifically being tied to time reversal. If we lived in a universe where the second law were somehow different and entropy "statistically always" decreased with time the way it "statistically always" increases now, then... well, it's hard to reason about such a universe because either it has very different laws than our own, or it's just our own universe with exactly that arbitrary t <--> -t transformation. But in most logically-consistent interpretations of that scenario, that universe's version of Landauer's principle would also flip the arrow of time perceived by its local inhabitants, and they'd end up with only memories of their "future". If I'm not quite making my point clear, try asking yourself why, if the laws of the universe are time reversible, why can't you remember the future the way you can remember the past? This gets into the mechanics of how memory works (as a general concept, not human memory specifically; it's easier to think about computer memory). (Edit): Why isn't this a trivial point? Well, if you imagine a universe composed of a chain of of "linked states" that goes from (low entropy) - (high entropy) - (low entropy), you'd find that any inhabitants of that universe would perceive a universe with directional time that progresses in the entropy gradient, even though that universe has no consistent directional time.