7 ms·
It seems reasonable to reject the patch for technical and legal reasons, but it's pretty disappointing to see toxic comments from prominent kernel developers li
by microcow 6y ago
It seems reasonable to reject the patch for technical and legal reasons, but it's pretty disappointing to see toxic comments from prominent kernel developers like:
> "Seriously? If you only even considered this is something reasonable to do you should not be anywhere near Linux kernel development. Just go away!"
https://lwn.net/ml/netdev/20200727073509.GB3917@lst.de/ https://lwn.net/ml/netdev/20200727073509.GB3917@lst.de/
https://lwn.net/ml/netdev/20200728064706.GA21377@lst.de/ https://lwn.net/ml/netdev/20200728064706.GA21377@lst.de/
- nix23 6y agoAll in all Linux (the kernel) has a really toxic environment. If you like a more friendly community and still want to work on a Kernel go to Net/Freebsd, Haiku or OmniosCE. With Linux (the kernel) you are not allowed to make mistakes or ask (stupid?) questions.
- non-entity 6y agoCan confirm: Haiku, FreedBSD, NetBSD, and DrangonflyBSD kernel communities have been quite friendly and helpful.
- zokula 6y agoOh stop the bullshit and hyperbolic hand waving. The Linux kernel community is way more friendly place to work than any of the BSD kernel communities.
- nix23 6y agoYeah linux, its a lovely place ;) Just curios...why are you so against BSD's (looking at you comments) is it a Fanboy thing? Are you fighting also so hard witch distribution is the best? :)
- q3k 6y agoYeah, this sort of tone on LKML has repeatedly driven me away from trying to upstream my patches. I don't need handholding and hugs, but if I'm going to get unconstructive toxicity like this then I'd rather just keep carrying my local patchset around.
- boomboomsubban 6y agoI would describe posting your code in 21 patches, the last of which makes it fairly obvious there will be legal issues as "unconstructive toxicity" as well. Particularly when submitting something for a kernel team in a company like Facebook.
- beefee 6y agoAs a user and downstream developer, I'm glad that the Linux maintainers are committed to maintaining a sound architecture. The idea that they need to be more polite about rejecting low quality work is puzzling to me.
- nix23 6y ago>need to be more polite about rejecting low quality work is puzzling to me. First, it's not low quality Second, for sure you have to be polite if you don't pay him (but even when you do, you should) Third, imagine a 16yo get smashed like that (not that i say he is) and what a devastating and demotivating thing that could be...welcome to the linux world Overall, those Superstar Linux dev's are mostly ignorant borderline autistic assholes who can't develop a good Filesystem like XFS or ZFS from scratch, then moan about Nvidia, but work on a computer with around ~100 proprietary systems called firmware. One accusing the OpenBSD peoples for being masturbating security Monkeys just to say (4-6 years later) that they where right (a super rare occasion for a linux super star). You know what i like to say? FUCK YOU LINUX, FUCK YOU GNU (but not grep...gnu grep is nice)
- rini17 6y agoYou are right, it's not low quality, it's high quality attack on whole culture. But please come up with real examples, did linux devs ever like "smashed 16yo"? Also, why don't you set an example and express yourself politely too?
- nix23 6y ago>Also, why don't you set an example and express yourself politely too Because i can: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caOq2rDe_C0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caOq2rDe_C0 EDIT: Oh yeah a attack on a culture...what culture? The Fuck you NVIDIA but we send you firmware because otherwise nothing will work? That Culture?
- ska 6y agoWhat is puzzling to me is the idea that being rude contributes anything to the cause of maintaining a sound architecture. As far as I can see, if you have to say "no" doing so politely has no downside, whereas behaving like this clearly has some.
- deft 6y agoHow is that comment toxic? The code this guy was trying to get merged in was toxic, and the kernel developer rightly told them to stop trying to push this harmful code.
- microcow 6y agoIt's degrading ("toxic") to tell a contributor they don't belong in kernel development with comments like the above and the follow-up: "...you really disqualify yourself from kernel work. Please really just go away and stop this crap."
- pritambaral 6y ago1. They're not a contributor. Not yet, anyway. 2. How degrading do you consider the submission? As can be seen from the patchset, there's no conceivable way it could be built into the kernel without having the kernel build depend on proprietary headers, effectively disqualifying it entirely. This all-important fact is revealed in the very last patch of a 21-patch patchset, wasting everyone's time, and a lot of it. It's either utter carelessness, stupidity, or outright malice to ask for something like this to be included into a loudly-and-clearly GPL-licensed kernel.
- q3k 6y ago> As can be seen from the patchset, there's no conceivable way it could be built into the kernel without having the kernel build depend on proprietary headers, effectively disqualifying it entirely. Then just disqualify it, cite the reasons for why, and move on. No need for attacks, no need to tell the other person to fuck off. There's enough badness in the patch that you don't need to resort to criticizing the submitter.
- pritambaral 6y agoAs I have said already, which you seem to be ignoring: "This all-important fact is revealed in the very last patch of a 21-patch patchset, wasting everyone's time, and a lot of it. It's either utter carelessness, stupidity, or outright malice to ask for something like this to be included into a loudly-and-clearly GPL-licensed kernel. ---- In the end, all I have to say to you is: If I walk up to you in the street and slap you in the face, unprovoked, surely the noble thing for you to do is to politely tell me off; but I will not hold it against you if you were to lose your cool and retaliate.
- kabdib 6y ago> "Seriously? If you only even considered this is something reasonable to do > you should not be anywhere near Linux kernel development. Just go away!" A response like this would get you a serious talkin' to at just about any place I've worked. Possibly fired, if it was consistent behavior. I don't care if you're Donald Knuth, Dennis Ritchie and Edgar Djikstra all rolled into one, act like a jerk and you're off of my Christmas list.
- stefan_ 6y agoSo what do you get for trying to upstream an entirely useless patchset that exists purely as a GPL workaround to enable the ever-proprietary NVIDIA driver? Do you realize that's spitting into the face of the very people trying to drive open-source software across the entire stack? Greg KH called this trolling, and he isn't one to mindlessly throw around insults.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- nix23 6y agoThat is on point, Thanks.
- spoopyskelly 6y agoThey should put participation awards in the Code of Conduct.
- microtherion 6y agoBesides, I'm confident that Knuth would never say something like that, and Ritchie was not known for such antics, either, to my knowledge. Dijkstra would probably have said something like that, though he'd have crafted a pithier way of saying it.
- Corazoor 6y agoWhile I agree that these responses are rude, patches like this are the lkml equivalent of taking a dump in someones backyard... It might very well be that the submitter didn't know that, the documentation on what will be flat out rejected is not very explicit. But a compile-time dependency on a non-gpl module should be very self-evident, and the documentation explicitly asks people to go and learn about how the GPL works... Revealing that as Patch 21 of 21 just adds insult to injury. Wasted a lot of peoples time with that one. The fact that the module in question is from nvidia further shows that the submitter just had no idea of the histoy and culture of the linux developer community. And that is the charitable Interpretation... The kernel developers have to fend off stuff like that constantly, some are probably pretty jaded by now, which leads to responses like that. It's normal human nature, most service workers who have to deal with customers have similar problems, and some develop the same kind of behaviour. If you don't outsource thinking to other people you actually won't get reponses like this.
- microcow 6y agoNo! A flawed patch is not the equivalent of "taking a dump" in someone's yard. Proposing a flawed patch is not a contemptuous act, it's not insulting, and it is not injurious. Treating it as such is the problem. Telling someone they "should not be anywhere near Linux kernel development" and to "just go away" is degrading and contemptuous.
- rini17 6y ago...and right thing to do in these circumstances.
- nix23 6y agoNo! Talking or writing about another person like that (in public) is shameful for that Guy and for that Hellwig Clown (the guy who lost against VMware) too. If you say something like that in private..ok, not nice but acceptable but NOT in Public that should be absolute clear for any decent human being.
- 6y ago
- userbinator 6y agoI wonder what Linus would say. "nVidia, fuck you!"? Maybe not this time.
- temp43t453 6y agook, what you do when someone modifies the product you're using so you cant continue to use it the way you did before, and you cant fix it or alter it due to legal or community reasons? you move away to different product. what the people who use/develop kernel would do when they become unable to modify large part of kernel code that is highly needed for their work? business doesnt work like typical consumer, there is no "products" that they pick from the big market
- hvis 6y agoThere is one subtle fact that kernel contributors (as well as members of other "serious" free software project) have to make a point to avoid knowing the internals of proprietary software, in order to avoid any suspicion of copying the code, design, or willful patent infringement. As such, submitting a patch that relies on such internals in third-party proprietary code and thus imparts a certain amount of knowledge about those internals to the reader might make the work life of the reviewers more difficult. So it is considered distinctly impolite. I'm not 100% sure about the exact legal reasons/mechanisms involved, but this has come up previously during the review of Microsoft's DX12 patches for WSL.